Today's conversation is one of those that really sits right at the intersection of HVAC, home performance,
and building science. My guest today is John Ellis, and we spend this episode unpacking what it actually takes to
deliver healthy, comfortable homes, not just efficient equipment. We talk about mapping buildings, understanding
pressure relationships, controlling humidity, and why data has to drive every decision that we make. We also
talk about the business side of this work, training contractors, pricing IAQ solutions, and why the industry needs a
mindset shift from selling products to solving problems. Because the reality is simple. If you don't test, it's just a
guess. Hey everybody, welcome to the HVAC ADHD vodcast. I've got John Ellis
here from Dynamic Comfort Consulting. And um John's a pretty well-known guy in our industry. him and I were just at the
National Comfort Institute conference uh this past week. So, I'm sure we'll have a couple little uh pointers to talk
about from there. But for the most part, John is the overarching IQ expert in our
industry. So, much of our conversation today, as I'm sure much of John's conversations do, is going to revolve
around IAQ. Um, welcome, John. Thank you for coming. Awesome. Well, I really appreciate you
having me here and it's a pleasure to be here and always like to talk all things HVAC and IAQ and uh just uh hey for
context HVAC building science and IAQ indoor air quality are inseparable
and and I like to think that they are the trifecta of us building and maintaining better environments.
Absolutely. I always say this the you know when I came into the industry the
big conversation um in the home performance world was efficiency right that's what everybody wanted to talk about and they wanted to talk about
payback and all this other stuff but the real conversation I think is the comfort
health and safety and then the efficiency those are all synergistic things but if we give them the comfort
and the health then the efficiency should come along with that if they're doing it the right way that's the way
I've always looked at Yeah. And and you know what, to your point, Jeremy, um I I when I go on on a
consult, right, and whe whether it's a comfort or it's indoor air quality, um I
have some cards and and they say uh safety, health, comfort, and efficiency.
And on the back of the cards is a little description of what each of those categories are. And and I give them to
my customer during our conversation. I said, "Hey, you know what? Can you have a look at these cards and you can can
you place them down in the order that is most important to you and your family so
I can make your priority my priority and furthering the conversation. And almost
always like 95% of the time they go down safety, health, comfort, and efficiency.
Sometimes health and safety will be uh switched especially if I'm doing an IAQ
consult but you know what our industry is so hyperfocused on efficiency and and
yes we need to be good stewards of of our resources and efficiency is important but if that's not the main
focus of your client and you go in talking efficiency efficiency efficiency
you've lost them right out of the gate. So I like to get that out first. That way I can tailor my conversation and my
focus to what the customer really wants. How often do you see um where you go in
to fix a IAQ problem and you end up solving some comfort issues that the customer was less worried about, but it
gets uh solved as a default of what you're doing to fix their IQ in their home.
100% of the time. Yeah. And um uh I have six key principles or I like to say
called like foundational principles that I like to focus on first um as we're
going in and doing a uh a consult if you will. And um and that would be thermal
comfort. We are in the comfort business, are we not? We sell comfort every day uh
in the HVAC world of things. Uh but what a lot of uh HAC contractors and the
likes don't understand that anybody who is compromised thermal comfort can have
a whole different meaning than just hey I want to feel good in my house and
really uh and it's interesting too people who are compromised can feel pressure differences within their home
as well so thermal comfort and then uh humidity control either too much or the
lack thereof right so we need to control humidity And then ventilation. Let's put the V
back in HVAC, right? Ventilation is an very important strategy in both comfort
and IAQ. Uh dilution can be the solution for some pollutions, right? And then as
we move down the line, I'd like to look at filtration. Every piece of equipment that we look at should have some kind of
filtration uh attached to it. And so um and then after filtration I like to look
at building pressures and that is huge as we as we do pressure mapping and
moisture mapping and temperature mapping in and in through the house. You know temperature and pressure are directly
related. We we look at infiltration. You know we want to keep inside in and outside. So, as we're looking at
pressures and infiltration rates, you know, when we're doing load calculations in our business, one of the best numbers
that we can plug in would be our infiltration rates. Uh, and the only way to do that would be to deploy a blower
door and be able to get that number. And then last in that would be um pollutant
identification and source control. We can't fix what we don't know about. If
there's pollutants in the space that are causing problems for our clients and we don't know what those pollutants are, we
can't go after them. So, if we can identify the pollutant, then hey, we got a pretty good idea where those
pollutants may be coming from, whether it's uh things that we bring into the built space, if it's something that's uh
behavioral, which is always the wild card of course, and then is it something from outside coming in by way of
infiltration. Uh so those are my six key principles. We should be using those in
our everyday uh day-to-day business in HVAC. And if we can get a handle on that, then we can start talking about
other things outside of the realm of those six key principles. Does that make sense?
Absolutely. So you train contractors, right? That's your main your main bread and butter or what? Tell tell us a
little bit about your business model, your personal business model, how you make your money. Well, sure. So I I've had the the
privilege of teaching indoor air quality for Dyken Amanda Goodman for the last six years. you know they approached me
and wanted to create a curriculum and uh and when they did I said hey I I am
absolutely your guy but I will not stand in front of a group of people or a classroom and and and sell products
because that's what everybody else does you know products come later you know so I I said it needs to be the
nuts and bolts and science behind IAQ and it's based on some simple principles
building science building forensics and indoor air
quality from a mechanical point of view. I built this curriculum for the HVAC
industry. It's 2 days, 16 hours, very foundational. Um there are some topics
that I I I would like to take a deeper dive. I could spend a whole day on psychometrics. We could spend two or
three days on building science. Uh we can we can um spend two or three days on
the indoor environmental and uh the discovery process of that identifying uh
pathogens, bacteras, germs, pollins, you know, pollutants. Uh but but it's very
foundational and it's been wellreceived and I've had contractors in the field all over the United States taking taking
the foundation that I've given them and and are running with it and doing a fantastic job. Uh, one of the other
things that I get to do um, uh, in the past was a business coach and a field
service trainer for a company called the new flat rate. Now that is menu pricing, not traditional flat rate, but menu
pricing. I had the pleasure with the with the founder Rodney Coupe at
developing the very first and only building science and indoor air quality
menu pricing module within the new flat rate that takes all the stuff that we're
talking about and being able to help contractors put pricing to that, have a
way to uh to present that to a client in a menu format and and then get paid for
every step of the way. you know, early on in my career, I gave all my testing away. One, I was excited. It's like,
woo, I've got all this new knowledge. I want to put it to use, right? And then it was like, well, you know what? Well,
I'll make up for it on the back end. And and I had a high closing rate because there wasn't a whole lot of um
contractors doing what I did at the level I did it. So, I had a very high closing rate, but not everybody's um as
fortunate as that. And so, you never really make it up on the back end. And so then uh this gives u the contractors
an opportunity to get paid every step of the way through discovery through
creating a scope of work and then implementing that scope of work. So that's been very very rewarding.
So is flat rate like an ERP just for people that don't know is it like service titan or something like that or what is it? What is flat rate exactly? I
Okay. So thank you for asking. So traditional flat rate has been good, better, best. I mean, that's kind of the format that our industry and all the
skilled trades have used. Um, most of the time when you do a good, better, best, you still have to go into your CRM
and and pull those options down and build it on site. Uh, kind of kind of a
a um a bespoke uh uh approach. Uh, and
for those of you that don't know what bespoke means, it's a custom and so a custom thing. But but so
there's still that time to to search for the options that you want to put into a
a bundle or or a good, better, best and then hope that the pricing works out and
then present it. Um so what we've done is we've gotten rid of that. So human
nature throw out the top, throw out the bottom and we kind of find oursel in the middle. A lot of people um historically
uh have been like middle shoppers. Uh we're we um were a prideful and say,
"Hey, you know, we we deserve better than the bottom." Uh but then we're also logical. I can't afford the top. But if
you only have three options, throw out the top and the bottom. That only leaves you with one option. That's still not a
choice. You're kind of left with that. Uh our industry has been a take it or leave it kind of um uh industry for the
longest time. You go in, hey Mr. or Mrs. homeowner, uh, you've got a problem. Uh, this is what it costs. Take it or leave
it. And you push them into a corner, they feel like they don't have a choice. That leaves a bad taste in their mouth. Buyers remorse. Um, you know, kind of
doesn't feel good when you're pushed into a corner and not given them the choice. Millions of dollars are
exchanged hands every day in the food service industry, right? You go to a
restaurant, you're greeted with a smile, you're brought to your table, you're sat down, and what's the first thing they
do? They give you a menu, right? And then they leave you alone for
a minute to look at the menu. At no time does that food service person come back
and try to hard sell me on anything. Now, they might say, "Hey, we got some specials today." Or they might give you
a little push on the desserts, and that's always where I go. But but a a waiter or a waitress in food
is not a salesperson. Here's our menu. Here's what we have to offer. What should we do? And so each repair, we've
got thousands of repairs in electrical, plumbing, HVAC service,
uh, chimney service and repair. And my personal favorite, which is the building science, and IQ, you diagnose the
problem, you follow a process, you get in front of the customer. Hey, you know what? I I found a fault in I'm a little
concerned. Here's what we got. What should we do? And you hand them a menu. 80 our analytics show that 80% of all
clients if only given an option or a choice will choose something above the
basic repair. But hey, thank goodness we have a basic repair because if that's all they can afford that is fine.
Yeah. So in in in HVAC sales and I know this is not a sales thing and we'll we'll get past this.
No, I love it. This is any this is HVAC ADHD. So this is all of it and sales is a big part of it. So this part I'm
actually super curious about how this actually works. Like is it a software that you guys or is it is a plugin for
the ERP or how do they how does somebody actually use flat rate? Like where do they go to get it and all that stuff?
It it is a standalone and it's appbased. So you're tapping. We are fully integrated with Service
Titan and House. And so once we go through the whole process within the a uh the um uh new
flat rate app, one touch of a button, it all jumps over into Service Titan or
House Call Pro. Uh within other uh field service um CRM, uh we have a copy and
paste feature. One touch of the button, copy it. And some of it we have a like a digital handshake. not a full
integration and it works really really well. And so the that's that's the premise and if if only given the option
here here's here's an analogy I like to make. Um if if you're going to go around town and you're going to diagnose
problems and let's just use a capacitor for for instance and if you're going to sell a capacitor for $350, whatever that
may be for your marketplace, that's fine. I call that a cheeseburger. So, if you're going to run around town slinging
cheeseburgers all day long, every day, all day, today, tomorrow, next month, next year, that's fine. If it fits your
business model and you have if you know your numbers and you have your profit um your profit and revenue built into that,
well, that's fine. But you know what? If you don't have the lobster or filet menu
on your menu, how many are you going to sell? Yeah. Zero. You never if you don't ask, you never
get to sell. I mean, I'd say with everything. Yeah. Zero. And so our philosophy is built on
honesty, integrity, common sense, right? Yep.
You never do any less, right? Do what you say, say what you're going to do,
right? And and then each each option as we go up, there's five will be the basic
plus. Then it'll be plus plus. And then when we get to the top, it's all the
bells and whistles. Everything is there. I mean, we if they choose our platinum option, right, and and and I get push
back all the time. It's like, "Oh, John, how can you sell a capacitor for $1,300?" It's like, I'm not selling a
capacitor for $1,300. I am selling a platinum service that includes a
capacitor. Yes. You know what? If the mag contacttor's out, it's going to include that. I'm going to do electrical wire termination
restoration. I'm going to go ahead and clean that clean that uh condensing coil. I'm going to bring that thing back
to as best as I can with the time that I'm allotted. So if you were to unpack
that, right, and you say, okay, if we did one unitary service or we only did the capacitor and we came and did that
and left, and then we came back and did the the mag contacttor and left and we came and cleaned the connecting coil and
left, that that all added up would be a lot more than just choosing that
platinum option and doing it all because I'm already there. So in in in in sales
in general, so we we all know in our industry the value of what we do. I mean
our industry has also been commodity driven. All you need is this Mr. and
Mrs. homeowner. All you need is this and your problems will be solved. Well, if all I need is this, what don't I need? I
don't need you because I can get this on Amazon and I could go to YouTube University and learn
how to put it in. So we need to take our focus off of this. My knowledge,
expertise and experience is what allows me to bring this to life
safely, right? And being able to diagnose that's where the value is. And
we need to we have a have a paradigm shift and and be not commodity driven
because I can get I can get a capacitor anywhere. I could probably walk into Home Depot and get a capacitor, right?
So, we need to have that that kind of paradigm shift, if you will.
Yeah. No, I love it. I love it. I love that you give somebody an easy way to offer the advanced options and put it in
a format that um is understandable to the customer so that they can easily make a choice whether they want it or
not. That's that's a big deal. So, I'm appreciate you giving the explanation of how that works. I think there needs to be more of that. What's the do you know
what the cost add-on is to service titan or something like that? Uh so first and foremost we are not a
pricing company. We are a software and process development company. Right. And so the onboarding we we need to work
with each customer. Got it. You you know most HBAC contractors and
skilled service don't even know how much it costs them to put a truck in the driveway for the first hour because the
first hour is the most expensive hour. Yeah. They don't even know that. It's like well let's start there. Uh they don't
know what their billable hour is. Uh they don't know the difference between profit and revenue because they are not
the same and and and and having just some simple KPIs in place to track your
numbers. Uh just a couple to get started. Let's get started with just let's watch this. Uh and then what how
much do they need per truck per day? A and then minimize or maximizing each
call. And I uh uh fluid dispatching is also a big deal. Don't give a technician
their full schedule because little Johnny's got a softball game or you know I want to watch uh Monday Night
Football, so they're like, "Okay, well I'm going to try to rush through these." One call at a time. Let them focus on
that call. And I like the I I like a concept, too. Put the man on the money. If you got a guy that's really good on
working on on mini splits, put him on the mini split call, right?
And seems obvious, right? Aces and places. I mean, that's really like how you should run it, but like it doesn't always go
like that. You're right. And that's usually a logistics issue. The the point you're making about not knowing their
money, like I do a lot of of working with contractors to try to help them integrate home performance and other things into their to their uh systems.
And we always run into that. Like they don't know where the money's coming from. They don't know their KPIs. And
so, like, it's a big deal. I actually have a blog article coming out that's talking about stacking KPIs where um you
start with your basic, you know, exactly what you're talking about, your basic business KPIs in the on the HVAC side
before we ever even move into the the home performance KPIs because you can't stack those on top of the the business
ones until you know where the business ones land. You're never going to know how to price home performance properly
if you don't know how you're pricing the rest of your HVAC stuff. So, I love uh that you made that point because it's
very we we see it a lot, you know, in in these shops. So, once we uh work with a customer and
kind of get all the the business part, the money part taken care of, uh then we
go ahead and uh we we start with the with the basic option. So, just a basic
repair. How much do you need to make on that basic repair to be profitable? And
then we have an algorithm that works the rest of the pricing out as it goes up. And then the c the contractor always has
the option of going into their uh their dashboard and uh you know adjusting things as as they go. And so
so you use their actual cost like you get them to bring all their cost uh to the table and you actually work with the
business owner to figure out where their real margins are before you implement the software. Sure. We can break it down by call.
We can break it down by truck, per day, per week, per month. I mean, the the the
numbers just extrapolate out. But but le let's let's let's just just keep it real simple. Let's look at the
tree before we look at the forest and the rest will take care of itself. And so
uh it's been very rewarding. And I go all over the United States and I I work with companies. I put on a uniform and
let's go run service calls. And and it's real funny. I've never been a plumber. I've never been an electrician in my life. But, you know, in HVAC, we got to
know quite a bit about a lot of it. And I've had my best successes riding with
plumbers and my best numbers. And I'll go out and I'll say, "Okay, yeah, you know what? I got this call. Let me run
this call." And uh, of course, they'll do the work, but I'll run the call. And I've had some of my best numbers come
out of working with plumbers in the field. It's pretty it it even amazes me. I had um and then more recently,
maintenance agreements have been kind of my jam. Uh because man, we're in trouble
as an industry when it comes to maintenance because we like to give them away. And and I I like to I like to um
I I I like to help contractors understand there is the value of what we do. We kind of touched on that, our
knowledge, expertise, experience, but then there's perceived value in the customer's eyes. And if those two don't
line up, it's a losing battle. And I'll give you I'll give you one example. We
went out to a job and I I think I was in Michigan and I was working with a young uh maintenance tech, right? And uh so we
go we do a couple calls and uh we get to one I say, "Hey, I I'll go ahead and run this one." And and so we get there and
uh um it all it's fully we're we're scripted and a process from start to finish from when the CSR answers the
phone to you close the call to you uh um ask for a review everything. It's all
there's a process for everything. Uh but we we get there and I introduce us and I say, "Hey, what brings us out here
today?" And and they're like, "Yeah, you're here for your maintenance and you can we come in?" And we come in and the lady's phone rings and she's like, "Just
just a minute." and she answers the phone and she says, "Hey, can I call you right back? The filter guys are here.
It's awesome." How much value do you think in that customer's eyes she had in us being
filters changers? Can change a filter? Exactly. So, we get housekeepers to change
filters. You know, we can get a housekeeper. Yeah. So, so the the value and the perceived
value were way way way out of whack. Yep. And so we have to have dialogue and
conversation to bring those two back into an alignment. And if you don't address it right then and there or
address it sometime, uh it's it's a losing proposition. And so maintenance has kind of been a jam.
I've I've presented on how to have a profitable maintenance department. Um, I work with a company in Minnesota and
their maintenance department is catching up to the service department in revenue by following a process with honesty,
integrity, and common sense and some training. Right. So, that's uh that's kind of been something that's been uh
kind of a little project of mine. And one of the other things I get to do is I'm a product ambassador for uh the new
I mean uh Dustfree and Recctor Seal. And of course, I have a a product that's out
that's been a lot of fun. And then my own business at Dynamic Air Consulting. I work with clients all over the United
States, mostly people who are compromised and I work with contractors, bring them into the field. I bring my
testing equipment and we go in and we we we do forensics and test test out. Um we
develop a scope of work and then we'll sit down and have that conversation with the client. They get to watch how this
all happens. They get to use my tools in the field and uh understand what the data is telling them. I mean, we have to
be data driven in everything we do. And then um and then it's up to them to quote the job because I don't know
everybody's marketplace and I've had great success in that and so yeah, there there's the elevator
version. Yeah. Now you do a lot you it's a big ball of wax. The sales thing is super interesting to me because that's one of
the biggest weaknesses we find, you know, as far as like knowing your numbers and all that stuff like that.
That's a that's a whole uh rabbit hole for a lot of companies. Um, on the IAQ
side, when you do your trainings, what is it that what is it that you hope the contractors take away from the training? Like what are you wanting them to take
back to their shops when you um do put on the IAQ training for the for the
companies? Um, so every every technician, every
company is at a different place in their journey. Uh, some people have no exposure to it. Uh I I think if you were
to ask most HVAC companies out there, uh what indoor air quality means to them,
they're automatically going to associate that to a product and we know what those products are and it's automatically
going to be this one or it's going to be that one or it's going to be the blue lights, right? And that's all they know
about indoor air quality is is these products. And so I we need to be
solutions driven and not product driven. and and and then the products will come later.
And um I also teach you know our industry is so hyperfocused on selling equipment. I if if again here's another
paradigm shift if we go in and we focus on IAQ you will be surprised how many of those
types of jobs will lead to equipment changes equipment sales.
Oh I'm sure. Yeah. But but we don't start with that because we need to be in align, you know, with with
what the customer's uh wants and needs are. And so to put this in context, uh when I
had my company in California where I really started to cut my teeth in indoor air quality, uh my customers came to me
with a whole host of compromises. Um and so that would be cystic fibrosis, it
would be COPD. I've had lung transplant recipients. um debilitating asthma,
limes disease, valley fever, immune oncology, right? All the way down to
your garden variety seasonal allergies. And so those were my clients that came to me. And so this is this is real IQ.
The very decisions that I help these clients make, either the quality of life
or their very life depend on those decisions. So, this is we go in and and
I have a three-step process that I use when I go into a home uh kind of a lot
like like building science and and these principles can be applied across all spectrums.
Sure. Investigate, analyze, and quote IIAQ. See what I did there?
I love that. That's the investigation is what we call discovery, right? Then out of and then
so we have to do all three. Got to do them in order. So investigate, gather data, analyze the data, and make
decisions to quote that job based on data and not emotions.
Within th that those that three-step process, I have a subset of categories
that we put our attention on. That would be air safety and the ability with
testing equipment and gathering data to see the unseen. What is in the air? What
is in that environment that we can measure and put data to that can only be
done with testing equipment because it is invisible to the eye. The second part
would be the building safety and that would be all our building science um uh
type of principles uh pressure mapping, moisture mapping, temperature mapping,
infiltration, right? We look at thermal properties. We look at stratification.
We look at stacking. We look at wind wind stack and mechanical effects. It's
the whole house is a system approach. I've been using that for 20 years. And I've been doing Go ahead.
I was just going to say, tell us what you mean. I don't know if everybody knows what you mean by pressure mapping, temperature mapping, and um the other
thing you said, what do you mean by mapping? Explain that concept a little bit. People talk about it all the time, but I don't think it ever gets explained
out loud. Really? Sure. And uh my terminology might be different because I'm old school. So uh
No, no, I I think it's valid. I think it is what I think it is. I just want to hear you say it out loud for So another name for pressure mapping
would be zonal zonal pressures. And so um and and this
would be uh baselining. You know, what is the building offering on its own? And
and then as we introduce mechanical what is happening and and then uh and when I
say mechanical meaning all available exhaust that's taking air from the space to atmosphere then we introduce our
mechanical HVAC and and and then we see the effects of that and so when then we
go around and we we can actually map pressure changes within the space that
are driven by our mechanical And a what a lot of building science
practitioners fail to do is being able to early on identify their neutral
pressure plane and then the effect that has by introducing exhaust or even duct
leakage will move our pressure plane. If as we watch it move, if our neutral
pressure plane because of duct leakage or exhaust moves up, well then we are going to attack the top portion of that
and look for um uh interstitial communication and building leakage top.
If our pressure zonal neutral drops, then we're going to attack the the lower
section first because that's going to be our biggest uh pain point or
infiltration rates. and and this like if if we've got an HVAC that's in an attic with duct leakage and we've got, you
know, most of our exhaust happening upstairs and that moves our pressure plane up, that's where our tension
should go. If we've got a an HVAC in a crawl space with prominent duck leakage and some other exhaust and that moves it
down, well, that's where we're our plan of attack goes first. and and we want to address it all but we can get the our
our our biggest uh impact by by identifying the neutral pressure plane
uh understanding what the effects of exhaust and duct leakage is on that plane and then understanding that that's
where our prominent uh shell leakage and where we can really make a difference
and so that would be pressure mapping and then moisture mapping as we look at the effects of mechanical our humidity
is going to move and um then then
we can understand some of the phenomena that's going on and then we look at temperature mapping too and so we uh you
hear a lot of uh a lot of contractors in the building science space as well talk about stack effect well stack is great I
like to look at stratification because stack happens with nothing running when we have convection loops as the
temperature changes molecules expand and contract we have a stacking effect, but
we get stratification once we introduce mechanical and most of the time that
gets discounted and we can follow humidity and temperature by looking at
stratification. Um and and then then we also look at
like the mean uh the mean loads in the house and and that gets discounted as
well. people don't understand what the mean load or impact is on a space as
we're looking at stratification and tracking temperatures. So tell them what you mean by mean load. I
don't think anybody's going to know what that I mean some people will but okay so when we look at a house of wood so we have the the house itself and its
orientation we have infiltration we got fenistration we got shade coefficients
we've got occupancy right and then we have building uh the building structure on how it was built our values with
insulation and all those things come into play while we're trying to build out a a load calculation and uh and and
and our infiltration number being one of the most important numbers uh but I think that it gets discounted a
lot the mean load in a in a space and it's more prominent during heating than
it is during uh cooling. Uh and so if we have a lot of hard surfaces, we've got
granite countertops, we've got leather, you know, leather uh furniture rather
than a uh material, right? So, and then we've got uh you know, a lot of hard
hard surfaces. What happens is if we don't design to uh
take that into account to our design as we're trying to heat that space uh we we
often uh are running too high a fan speed we satisfy the temperature of the
air or sensible right thermostat satisfied all those hard surfaces absorb
the heat now the space itself for the occupants is uncomfortable that's why
radiant heating in a floor is so wonderful because we actually address that mean
load at at the source. And so we need to look at that. And most houses with like
carpeting and, you know, nice drapery and different things. But if you've got hard window coverings, leather
furniture, hardwood floors, or even marble floors, marble countertops, all those things, that is what we consider
our mean temperature loads in a space. And it's mostly shows its ugly head
during heating. It's like, well, you know, the the ther the the thermostat kicks on, the heat runs for five
minutes, it turns off, and in three minutes I'm cold, and that that's what the mean.
So, how do you address that? Like, how do you as an HVAC contractor account for that and make sure that
you're taking care of the mean load? Like, what's the solution to figuring that out? Well, in most softwares, there there's a
place for it. Um, it's it's unnoticed because most contractors don't know to go there. And if you talk to uh if you
talk to Alex or you talk to Ed, they will tell you that it there is a place for it and and they've talked about the
mean load several times. Uh but it just you know it's a big topic. I mean Allison Bells has written about it. I've actually
mentioned it in some I mean it matters a lot. But for an HVAC contractor to be able to discern what that is and know
what to do about it, it's a whole different thing. Sure. And it has to do with surface area and um
so again uh we we have so much on our plate that we need to learn and you know if you're not doing low couch just start
that's one place to start for sure condo tech model whatever it is right as your journey continues you know there
I find it interesting a lot of a lot of contractors will do a manual J and they'll do a block load and then they'll
go right to a manual D. It's like, "Oh, wait a minute. How'd you do that? Was that magic?"
Yeah. And then it's like, "Well, you you probably should have a block load's great just to get your get started."
Equipment sizing, right? I mean, you can use a blockload pretty confidently for equipment sizing. Yeah. But then you need to do your
manual S because you need to know what your extended fan performance data is going to be.
And and then you need to set your fan to your sensible heat ratio and not just your nominal 400 CFM per ton. And
knowing where 7. Right. Right. So there's a manual manual J.
Right. And then manual S for our equipment selection. Then we can go manual D. And then you know whatever
what else everybody leaves out? Manual T. Because they don't understand our termination points will gobble up some
of your static pressure budget in your duct design. And if you don't allow for it, you're going to be in trouble.
make sense to me. It does. Um I'm hoping it makes sense to everybody
else. No, but your your your first point is is very valid. Like these guys need a starting place. Like where do we start
with all this? Like how do we start doing it? And starting with a load calculation is going to give you a lot
of information about the house. uh if you do it right, if you're not using defaults, if you're walking through the house and you're doing the discovery
that it takes to do a real load calculation, a lot of the things that you're there to combat will be exposed
by doing that load calculation if they do it correctly because they're going have to look inside the house and have
blower door numbers and things like that to really get a good solid precise load calculation in the software. So, if they
take the time to do the discovery, um, I mean, I think that it starts to expose a lot of issues that you're talking about
and as long as they know what to look for, they can start there. Sure. And looking at your installation, I mean, e even so, um, in my career, I
was a HERS raider in California. So, but I was also a QI HERS raider,
which is quality insulation installation. So, I would go behind insulation contractors and look at their
work. And man, it's a it's just as much of a train wreck as our industry is. Oh, 100. I'm I'm
Yeah. Even brand new, looking at the paper, it says R30, you automatically it's
devalued. Um because of the if it's not installed properly, gaps and voids and different things, it's devalued right
out of the gate. You can't rely on on just that. Um so have understanding what
that means. Um, when you're looking at R values, uh, I I had to fail so many
contractors because they would do a pony wall adjacent to an attic with R19
because that's what's in the all the other walls. I'm like, "No, no, no. This wall is no different than the ceiling
because behind it is your attic." Yep. And and so that wall needs to be R30 just
like your ceiling. And they they couldn't get it. They couldn't get it. And I have to fail the job and then
they'd be back. I I know. I've been a hers raider for many, many, many, many years and every
other kind of raider, too. And I can tell you right now that if the in somebody's not watching these guys when
they're installing it, almost 100% of the time, you're going to have to tell them to redo something like and we used
to tell people it should look like your bed just got made. The blanket was pulled tight in the attic and you tuck
the sheets into all the corners and you can just look across the top of it and you can look at your attic rulers and
see where it's supposed to go all the way across. If it doesn't look like that and it looks like this, like the bed
didn't get made and somebody's laying under the covers, then you probably got problems and you need to fix it. I mean, that's one of the, you know,
and the same thing goes with batting. If it's not touching all five surfaces, like, what do you mean five surfaces?
Well, you got the two studs, you got both ends in the ceiling. That's five. And that insulation needs to be in
contact with all five of those those surfaces uh to to work properly. And so,
and that can all be exposed with a with an infrared camera, right? I mean, we do it all the time. Blower door and infrared is one of the
best diagnostic tools you you can have. I mean, it's going to show, especially if you get a good enough temperature
differential outside, you even if you don't, you can still see it with the blower door. But air, a lot of people
don't realize air is moving at a different temperature than the rest of the building. So, when we start moving air through a building, we look at it
with an IR camera, we can see that pretty good. I've exposed a lot of problems in homes using that uh
methodology. Sure. and and just convection loops within a hall within a home with within
a home within walls within uh uh interial cavities. I mean,
things are always moving. You know, it took me a minute when I first started
doing u blower door testing and I'd go in and I'd baseline a house.
It's just me and my blower door and my anenometer. All the doors and windows are closed. Nothing is running. And I'm
looking and I'm like, I am negative -4 Pascals. It was a headscratcher. And I'm making
phone calls like, how could this be? Convection loops, John. Convection loops
as as things warm up and start moving, right? Pressure difference in an opening. Oh, yeah.
And the convection loop causes the pressure difference and there's openings everywhere and and so that was that was one of the
aha moments when I started doing I had it as well. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, it makes you just I mean and it's so you know what's cool is now being able to watch guys have that same moment
when you put the blower door on and you put an IR camera in their in their hand and and they start re realizing why
they're feeling what they're feeling or why things are moving like they're moving or the problems are like ah you see it with your own eyes and you know
it's the same way with homeowners too like you let them experience that stuff for themselves they have those moments
then you really sold them on what you're doing because they feel like they had a hand in discovering the problem in their
own home. Yeah. Yeah. And that's why I like the when the guys come out, it's like I like them to hold the tools, use
it, you know, tactile kesthetic learning, you know, and I had a contractor call me just yesterday from
uh South Carolina Spartanberg and uh he that he had taken my class. I did it
privately. They got they're running 45 guys. So I did half their company for two days, half their company for the
other two days. He said, "John, I took a couple c uh technicians out with me and
I told one of my techs, I go," hey, go take that wall plate off the receptacle and he looked at me like I was crazy and
he took it off. He goes, "What do you see in there?" He goes, "I see spiderw webs." He goes, "Those aren't spiderw webs. They're cobwebs." And the air was
just rushing out of that receptacle plate. And they had a big pressure imbalance. It was an older home. And
that was that was an aha moment. Things are always moving in and I love it.
Yeah. I tell I think at the um NCI conference I was on one of the panels and they
said, "What's your most underrated tool?" I said, "My ball head is my most underrated tool." I've discovered more
air leaks with my bald head than almost anything. I could be put the blower door on and walk around the house and feel
where the air is coming. I don't even need the IR camera half the time. Sure. And then you just get a damp rag
and now you got wet bulb. I'm not far behind you. I'm not far
behind you. I'm pulling I'm pulling that joke out and put making it a meme right there. I'm gonna make that that that clip a
meme. That's hilarious. My bald head is wet bulb. That's Well, you know, I I use this illustration. So, I'm like dry bulb. Wet
bulb. And then I take a rag and wipe relative humidity, right? And then I take a glass of water. Do point.
That's awesome. Yeah. No, I mean it's great. That's exactly right. That's That's hilarious. No, I love it. All
right, we're running up on our time here. I'm going to ask you the one parting question I ask every guest. If the world ended today and they ask you
to write one piece of advice on the wall for the industry, what are you leaving behind for the next generation?
If you don't test, it's just a guess. You love it. If you're not testing, you're guessing.
I That's what NCI is. But I I I started saying that about the time they started.
You know, I joined NCI almost 18 years ago. I know. I knew that.
And I've been I've been using their testing methodology for so long. It's just second nature.
Yep. So if you don't test, it's just a guess. We have to make our decisions based on
data. We got to be data driven. Yeah, Jeremy, that went by like that. We're going to
have to do that again. That was 45 minutes. I think we talked a little longer than we do on most of them. So, I
love it, man. We'll have to do it again. Um, this episode probably won't come out till Januaryish, just so you know,
because we got a bunch of them in the bank already. Um, so I'll let you know when we start promoting it. Um, we'll
send you clips and stuff like that for you to be able to promote it as well. All right. If you want to get another one in the can, let me know.
I will do it. We'll do it. We'll figure out what we'll do. This was a good just talk about it. Let's pick a topic next time and then dig into some stuff if you
want to. Oh, absolutely. That's that's where the rubber meets the road. Yeah, I like these little feel-good ones, but
um my next season is going to be really digging into some of the weeds of the stuff, so I love it.
Fantastic. All right, I'll talk to you later, man. Thank you very much. You have a great day. My pleasure.
