0:011 second[music]
0:022 secondsI'm your host, Jeremy Begley. Today's episode is one I've been looking forward to for a long time because we're joined by Wes Davis from AKA, the Air
0:1111 secondsConditioning Contractors of America. If you've ever wondered who's behind many of the standards, codes, and technical guidance that shape how our industry
0:1919 secondsdesigns and installs HVAC systems, there's a good chance Wes has had a hand in it. But this isn't just a
0:2626 secondsconversation about standards. We're talking about where HVAC design is headed. We dive into the biggest overhaul of manual J in years, why the
0:3535 secondssurvey process of manual J is becoming more important than ever, how AI and APIs can fundamentally change the way
0:4242 secondsload calculations are performed, and what that means for contractors, software developers, and the future of HVAC design. Along the way, we go down a
0:5151 secondsfew ADHD rabbit trails because that's what we do. We get into heat pumps, electrification, quality installation,
0:5959 secondscommissioning, humidity, real world design challenges, why calculations alone don't make a designer, and how AKA
1:071 minute, 7 secondsis evolving programs like quality installation to help contractors prove not just promise, aka verify, wink wink,
1:161 minute, 16 secondsthey're doing good quality work. If you're a contractor, designer, HVAC educator, energy raider, or simply
1:251 minute, 25 secondssomeone who wants to understand where the industry is going over the next decade, this is an episode you don't want to miss. So, grab a notebook
1:321 minute, 32 secondsbecause there's a lot of nuggets packed into this one. Let's jump into my conversation with Wes Davis from AKA.
1:391 minute, 39 secondsHey everybody, welcome back to the HVAC ADHD podcast. I'm your host, Jeremy Begley. Today I have a super special
1:471 minute, 47 secondsguest, Wes Davis from AKA. He's here to talk about the future of AKA, all things AKA and all things future and all things
1:561 minute, 56 secondscurrent initiatives and whatever else good stuff we get into. We tend to deviate a lot. We're both jumpound guys.
2:022 minutes, 2 secondsSo without further ado, Wes, go ahead and for those of that may not know, go ahead and introduce yourself and what you do and and how you fit in here.
2:102 minutes, 10 secondsAbsolutely. at West Davis with the Air Conditioning Contractors of America. Been there for a number of years.
2:162 minutes, 16 secondsStarted out working primarily in our codes efforts, codes interactions, helping develop the code requirements
2:252 minutes, 25 secondsfor HVAC system installations, etc. And then standards development. And we
2:312 minutes, 31 secondslaunched a new effort around 2010 to recognize quality contractors in support of Energy Star. And then there was a
2:402 minutes, 40 secondsshift at ACCA and some leadership changed and some people moved around and I was the last Indian in the ring. And
2:492 minutes, 49 secondsso I've been lucky enough to work with some really great guys at ACCA and elsewhere, yourself included, to further
2:572 minutes, 57 secondsthe industry and still work on codes with David Bixby, still work on standards with Kevin Powell, still work
3:053 minutes, 5 secondsin education content development with Ed, Matt, Ed Johnok, and Matt Akens, and still try to promote quality
3:133 minutes, 13 secondsinstallation with Brian Feny and contractor accreditation with Shawn Tolbert And just to narrow it a little
3:213 minutes, 21 secondsbit, I can talk about the technical aspects, all of the membership and communications and marketing, government relations. There's a lot going on at
3:293 minutes, 29 secondsACCA and I'm going to stay in my lane here, but I'm happy to talk about all of it.
3:343 minutes, 34 secondsAbsolutely. Yeah, I know there's been a lot going on, especially with all the refrigerant change and the back and forth between the government and what efficiency standards make sense and
3:423 minutes, 42 secondseverything like that. Anybody that follows AKA's newsletter knows that you guys got your hand in mostly all of that policy stuff. And usually you're the the
3:513 minutes, 51 secondsfair middle trying to make sure that the contractors, you know, get get a fair shake and also too that the administration is able to achieve
3:593 minutes, 59 secondswhatever goals they're trying to achieve within reason sometime and sometimes it's not within reason. So that's why someone like a is definitely necessary.
4:094 minutes, 9 secondsI mean we want to focus a little bit on the education piece if that makes sense.
4:134 minutes, 13 secondsLike we you know as a company we do HVAC design and we teach commissioning and we have a product called verified that
4:204 minutes, 20 secondsactually if the customer pays for it requires a commissioning a verified commissioning of the system to prove that our design and the design intent
4:284 minutes, 28 secondswas met and the design is performing as required. So that's sort of like our world. And so like I I know a lot of people that listen to this are probably
4:364 minutes, 36 secondsI know one we'll just jump right into it. One burning question is Manual Jay is up for its what is it fiveyear annual
4:444 minutes, 44 secondsreview. Is that every five years? I got that right? Yeah. Five year annual. It's actually been longer than that.
4:504 minutes, 50 secondsYeah, I know. But that's that is the expected cycle is five years though.
4:544 minutes, 54 secondsRight. Every five years typically as an American national standard you're expected to revise, reaffirm or withdraw
5:025 minutes, 2 secondsthe standard. And we are in the process of doing a fairly major overhaul of Manual J. And we've got some other big
5:115 minutes, 11 secondsprojects running in parallel which we can certainly chat about.
5:165 minutes, 16 secondsLet's do that. But first, let's say Manuel J, tell us what give us something juicy, man. you're here on the HAC ADHD podcast. In your mind, what's going to
5:255 minutes, 25 secondssurprise people about the changes that are coming up?
5:285 minutes, 28 secondsThe uh boy, it's a it's a great question. I don't know if it's going to be a shock,
5:345 minutes, 34 secondsbut the big change is the focus on the survey. So, at one time, Manual J was
5:415 minutes, 41 secondsthis thick, and you could do a load calculation on the back of a 2x6 with a crayon, right? you could look around, measure, look up some things in a book.
5:515 minutes, 51 secondsYou could eventually do the math yourself and some people did. And then some software companies said, "Hey, you
5:585 minutes, 58 secondsknow what? We'll do that for you." And so there was a migration towards companies like Rightsoft who built a DOS
6:066 minutes, 6 secondsversion in 2006 on the second day of the job that no 96 second day of the job.
6:136 minutes, 13 secondsThat's one of the things I was exposed to was doing a load calculation on this DOS system. And as software progressed,
6:226 minutes, 22 secondsmanual J progressed too. And it went from being a very thin manual to a very thick manual with a lot of examples, a
6:296 minutes, 29 secondslot of discussion, a lot of illustrations, a lot of a lot more data to support doing a more accurate, more
6:376 minutes, 37 secondsrigorous load calculation. And so with all this new information and knowing that computers were doing the math, no one's doing this by hand anymore,
6:466 minutes, 46 secondswe saw that there was a need. All right, let's let the software take care of the calculations. Let's focus on what data needs to be collected. And so we sat
6:566 minutes, 56 secondsdown with a number of folks this last summer and really dove into what's appendix five right now. So it's already
7:047 minutes, 4 secondsin manual J but extracting out those data points that every technician
7:117 minutes, 11 secondswhoever is in the house what measurements need to be taken what things need to be considered what defaults can be used and trying to
7:187 minutes, 18 secondsquantify that so that we can provide a basic list to a contractor or a software
7:267 minutes, 26 secondsvendor who says okay here's the data being collected and they can create an input or a user interface that will help collect like that data, maybe bake in
7:357 minutes, 35 secondssome of those defaults like your windows, blinds at 45 degrees, light color. So, you drive around any neighborhood and look at windows, that's
7:447 minutes, 44 secondswhat you're going to see. Unless it's the big picture frame window, and if it's a purpose-built daylight window, well, then you designate that.
7:527 minutes, 52 secondsGetting a little deep here, but the point was is that trying to help contractors do a better job knowing what they need to collect when they're in the field.
8:018 minutes, 1 secondThat Yeah. So what's that look like in the new version of manual J? Like a it's a big long list. That's what
8:108 minutes, 10 secondsstandards are there for, right? Is a great big long list. And there's going to be the still the appendix 5 which will have illustrations and examples.
8:198 minutes, 19 secondsWe'll have discussion and all of that.
8:228 minutes, 22 secondsWe're also Hank did a great job of presenting the calculations that needed to be performed, but it was sort of
8:308 minutes, 30 secondsspread throughout the standard and some of it was even in what was classified as an informative section. And so we want
8:378 minutes, 37 secondsto consolidate that, have a nice clean list description of what calculations need to be done so that future software developers don't have to hunt and peck.
8:498 minutes, 49 secondsthey can go straight to the point. So I think those are the two biggest things with the paper version of manual J that
8:588 minutes, 58 secondsare going to take effect this next time.
9:029 minutes, 2 secondsI like to focus on the survey. It's important and I think that it's more important now with the advent of the LAR
9:099 minutes, 9 secondstechnology and all these ones that make LAR and there's some other that's not LAR but it's the same basic concept. You can use a cell phone to walk to a house and measure it
9:179 minutes, 17 secondsand that takes the onus away of the measurement which was one of the biggest time consuming pieces of the manual J process. I we talking about the survey
9:279 minutes, 27 secondslike we have a workflow that we've developed and we've continued develop called permanent load reduction where you use the survey to use your guys
9:349 minutes, 34 secondsterminology the survey per portion of the manual J to if you're doing it right if you're doing the survey right and you're collecting the data points that
9:429 minutes, 42 secondsyou spoke of then you should be seeing things that have extra value to it beyond just the manual J compliance and
9:499 minutes, 49 secondsso you know we our workflow teaches how to use those that those aha moments from a building science perspective and put them into a proposal and make money off
9:579 minutes, 57 secondsof them and maybe affect the general KPIs of the company down the road because you take away some of the things that aren't system related by just
10:0510 minutes, 5 secondsrecognizing them right up front when you're doing the load calculation. So, I really like that because there's been like some of the marketing of some of
10:1310 minutes, 13 secondsthese softwares has been like, hey, we got this AI thing that will get you these great defaults. And I think we both know there's enough wiggle room in
10:2110 minutes, 21 secondsequipment sizing right now where those defaults are probably going to in an emergency situation get you where you need to go, but package J's always been based on that detailed survey like that.
10:3110 minutes, 31 secondsEven in current versions of manual J, it says it's a garbage in garbage out proposition and you need to have the most accurate representation of the
10:4010 minutes, 40 secondshouse that you're building that you're creating the load for. So like that is all great stuff that's going on there. And
10:4710 minutes, 47 secondsalso too, we're moving into an age where all these data points matter more than ever. You know what I mean? Like it is a datadriven era that we're moving into,
10:5610 minutes, 56 secondsespecially with all the AI stuff. And so the more precise that your data input points are, the more value you have in
11:0411 minutes, 4 secondsin that data and many different ways, lots of it beyond the scope of what we can even get into in this 1hour session that we're doing here. But it there's
11:1311 minutes, 13 secondsjust immense value into getting that stuff right up front. And I love that you guys are like pointing it out and saying, "Hey, this is the way that we
11:2011 minutes, 20 secondsshould do it." And also too, you're not prescribing a workflow. So people can get that data however it is makes sense for them to collect it as long as it all
11:2911 minutes, 29 secondsgoes into the calculation at the end. So you know that is another great way that you guys are doing that. And I think you
11:3711 minutes, 37 secondswere you saying that you may be open and I don't know I'm saying this from memory but did you tell me that heat balance and something else all the radant time series?
11:4611 minutes, 46 secondsYeah radiant time series. So you guys are going to consider that as a methodology now or what's that all about?
11:5311 minutes, 53 secondsThat's a great one. One of the points I wanted to make to the things you said is there are great tools. So for existing homes there's some great tools to help
12:0112 minutes, 1 secondyou collect that data. But if I'm a brand new guy and I've got a set of plans, what's the information I need?
12:0912 minutes, 9 secondsAnd if I don't have if I don't know the insulation schedule, the window schedule, or I don't have that information, I need to go back to the builder or the homeowner or somebody to
12:1712 minutes, 17 secondssay, in order to give you an accurate load calculation, I need this information. So pe balance and radiant
12:2412 minutes, 24 secondstime series manual J is built primarily on CLTD the cooling load temperature difference and and the cooling load
12:3212 minutes, 32 secondsfactor as it says in beginning of manual J. So heat balance [snorts] considers
12:4012 minutes, 40 secondsnumber of other equations. Radiant time series does something very similar and they're also looking at the loads
12:4812 minutes, 48 secondsthroughout the day. Manuel J says, "What's my peak load?" So, we've got a date when it's really hot and the sun is
12:5512 minutes, 55 secondsat peak impact. And in the winter, we're at an early morning when it's the coldest and we've got no solar gain.
13:0413 minutes, 4 secondsWe've got So, we're taking sort of a good rigorous look at what's the potential load on the house. We're
13:1113 minutes, 11 secondsmaking some assumptions about wind, what's reasonable to expect, etc. So with radiant time series and heat balance, there's a whole different set
13:1913 minutes, 19 secondsof equations. And so the trick at the moment is how do I know the right answer? So if Jeremy says, I've got a
13:2613 minutes, 26 secondsnew heat balance calculation process, great. Do I compare that to the CLTD
13:3313 minutes, 33 secondsvalue? Is it another heat balance calculation? If Jeremy's got one and Bob's got another and we've got
13:4013 minutes, 40 secondsdifferent answers, who's right or who's closer to right or how do we help dial it in? So, it's a whole new evaluation,
13:4813 minutes, 48 secondsa whole new set of issues to be considered, but the aspects of looking at the loads throughout the day, a
13:5513 minutes, 55 seconds24-hour load calculation has got huge impacts for talking about especially for zoning and delivering more comfort.
14:0614 minutes, 6 secondsYeah, thermal comfort. It's easier to consider thermal comfort by its pure definition when you're doing that calculation versus a static peak load
14:1314 minutes, 13 secondscalculation. For sure. No doubt about it. So, being able to So, the thing I guess you're I hear you saying or I think I hear you saying is you're trying
14:2014 minutes, 20 secondsto create a reasonable variance between the three where it's like if this one is this at this and this one's at this, how
14:2814 minutes, 28 secondsmuch off or how much closer should they be to each other to be considered a reasonable comparison? because methodologies of course there's going to
14:3514 minutes, 35 secondsbe some differences but I would think in there somewhere is a medium ground where you're like okay this has to be the load for the house no matter what or else how
14:4314 minutes, 43 secondscan we use three different calculations you know and that's it what's the right answer and then how close to that right answer
14:5114 minutes, 51 secondsdoes Jeremy's program need to be or Bob's program and Jeremy may be dead on and Bob's not all right Bob why not let's take a look at that and that's what we do with every software review.
15:0215 minutes, 2 secondsHere's a sample home with all the specifications. What's the load for this house? All right. Now, let's break it down. What's the load for the windows
15:1115 minutes, 11 secondsand what's the load for the doors, the walls, ceilings, floors, infiltration, the whole nine yards. And if we're
15:1815 minutes, 18 secondsaligned all the way through, it's a pass. If we're not, where did you what's your math? Where? Let me see your formula. What did you consider? Ah,
15:2615 minutes, 26 secondsyou're missing this. or oh, you interpolated this, but you interpolated a different way. Whatever the case may be, we try to look at all of those
15:3415 minutes, 34 secondsthings and identify where the differences are, why they're there, and then make adjustments as necessary.
15:4215 minutes, 42 secondsAnd then along with that, I guess there's some assembly updates and things like that, like small house cleaning things inside the standard itself where
15:5015 minutes, 50 secondsyou know there I know from using it there's some outdated assemblies.
15:5315 minutes, 53 secondsThere's some things that don't exist really anymore and there's some things that we do now that aren't in there too as well, you know. So like
15:5915 minutes, 59 secondsI think this might be a good segue to another topic you wanted to kick around and that was a project that we're going to do with the DOE, Department of Energy, the National Lab of the Rockies.
16:1116 minutes, 11 secondsScott Horowitz is working on part of it's essentially a two-part process
16:1916 minutes, 19 secondsand I think there's going to be some spin-off things that we're going to try and glean or extract in addition but
16:2616 minutes, 26 secondsprimarily the intent is to do a sensitivity analysis. Which elements from all those data points matter? Which matter the most?
16:3616 minutes, 36 secondsCan we get rid of some of them? do we really need to dial it in this much on insulation or this much on infiltration
16:4416 minutes, 44 secondsor whatever the case may be. But we can start to look for ways that we can streamline or simplify the load calculation procedure.
16:5416 minutes, 54 secondsAnd then to the extent that impacts the data that needs to be collected, making it easier, streamlining the process,
17:0117 minutes, 1 secondthen that's what we want at the end of the day. We want people to have a solid foundation upon which to build their
17:1017 minutes, 10 secondssystem and that starts with a good load calculation. And so understanding what those loads are so I can pick the right pieces of equipment to meet those loads
17:1817 minutes, 18 secondsand then distribute that as is best for the house.
17:2317 minutes, 23 secondsYeah, the load calculation is I like that you said foundation because literally that's how I teach it to everybody. You know, I have guys come to me and say, "Hey, I got a moisture
17:3117 minutes, 31 secondsproblem. What's your process for evaluating?" And I say, "Do a load calculation." like you start there because if you do it right. I'm like and
17:3817 minutes, 38 secondsI followed up by saying no do a load calculation like detailed load calculation because just doing that is going to expose so much about what's
17:4717 minutes, 47 secondsgoing on in the building. You might be able to identify the problem right then and there from doing the load calculation. That has to be the foundational step for everything. I
17:5517 minutes, 55 secondsthink that it is a good thing that you guys are taking the time to figure out what really matters the most and what matters maybe not as much and things
18:0318 minutes, 3 secondslike that. I think as we get down the road with AI, you know, there there's going to be some kind of situation that
18:1118 minutes, 11 secondsexists where AI would be able to determine if it's right for this situation. What's the right data point for this particular situation? Because
18:1918 minutes, 19 secondseven inside a particular situation, some data points measure matter more than others even inside the load calculation
18:2718 minutes, 27 secondsdepending on where the extremities of the load show up and stuff like that. So there's a lot that can be done using that load calculation as long as we keep
18:3518 minutes, 35 secondsthe foundation of it sound. So I love that that is your guys focus. Yeah, for sure. Absolutely.
18:4318 minutes, 43 secondsSo that along with that study, go ahead.
18:4518 minutes, 45 secondsTell us the I mean there's more to it, right?
18:4818 minutes, 48 secondsTo work with National Lab of the Rockies and Scott for those new building processes or new construction types. I'm
18:5818 minutes, 58 secondsalmost positive offset framing was not properly addressed or accounted for. And so to the extent you do have offset
19:0619 minutes, 6 secondsframing and better insulation and thermal value attic temperatures based on roof color and insulation and etc.
19:1419 minutes, 14 secondsdialing that in tighter but taking advantage of all the research that they've done updates of which they're
19:2219 minutes, 22 secondsaware working collaboratively to expand and again I think this is a behind the scenes part much like the math of the
19:3019 minutes, 30 secondscalculations it's all the data the the tables that are in manual J now updating those is necessary so that we've got
19:3819 minutes, 38 secondsbetter more accurate more current building procedures available and baked and for selection
19:4719 minutes, 47 secondsand then is this the same initiative that's uh turning it into the API eventually or is this connected or different or what
19:5519 minutes, 55 secondsthe Pacific Northwest National Lab will build once this calculation engine is built there will be a application
20:0420 minutes, 4 secondsprogram interface I believe is the term an API that will allow
20:1020 minutes, 10 secondsusers to feed data into that calculation engine and then it'll spit out the answer and say here's your loads based
20:2020 minutes, 20 secondson the information provided. And so this will be an open API. If you want to invest the time and effort to build your
20:2920 minutes, 29 secondsown calculation engine, you are welcome to do so. We want to support that. We want to provide you with the information you'll need. If you want to just build
20:3720 minutes, 37 secondsthe user interface and tie into the API and use this approved calculation engine, which will be updated and
20:4620 minutes, 46 secondsmodified as new research comes out or as new building materials go through the ASM evaluation process or as more
20:5420 minutes, 54 secondsinformation is provided and we understand what the thermal characteristics of that building component are reflected in this
21:0121 minutes, 1 secondcalculation procedure. It'll save on updates to the paper version of ManualJ,
21:0721 minutes, 7 secondswhich again I think as technology evolves, we're moving more to what's the
21:1621 minutes, 16 secondsdata that needs to be collected and then handing that off to someone so that it can be calculated and turned into the
21:2321 minutes, 23 secondsinformation we need to select equipment and install that.
21:2921 minutes, 29 secondsYeah. Yeah. And I think one thing that the API, the whole API thing does is let a lot of little guys that know a little bit about programming, create their own
21:3721 minutes, 37 secondslittle dashboard, and use Manual J in a way that's totally approved, but also totally works for what they are trying to achieve. So, I love that there's that
21:4621 minutes, 46 secondsopen-sourceness to it, especially in the in the age that we're in where if you know a little bit of something and you have a good idea, you could create what
21:5421 minutes, 54 secondsyou need. And with you guys supporting it and say, "Hey, we're going to give you the right answer no matter what. Do your thing." That's totally awesome for sure.
22:0122 minutes, 1 secondAs you know, getting the right answer depends a lot on that data you collect up front. Garbage in, garbage out.
22:0722 minutes, 7 secondsAnd so that has sparked some conversation about what will that look like after this tool is made available.
22:1622 minutes, 16 secondsAnd I think that to the extent that someone wants to build their own interface, that's not going to be a problem. But I think HCCA is going to
22:2522 minutes, 25 secondsshift from away from saying, "Jeremy, did you get the math right?" Now we're going to be more interested in that user interface. What are those data points
22:3322 minutes, 33 secondsthat you're collecting? What are the defaults that are baked in? Are they visible? Are they modifiable? Can you
22:4022 minutes, 40 secondschange the wind, the default wind value, summer and winter? If you say, you know, I live in the plains. I've got a much
22:4822 minutes, 48 secondshigher wind than what this default value is. Can I change that? And the answer is yes, you can. But that needs to be
22:5622 minutes, 56 secondscalled out so that a code official or some other energy efficiency program that's evaluating your load calculations
23:0323 minutes, 3 secondsis why did you use 20 miles an hour is your wind value for the load calc or something less. I'm going to use 5 miles
23:1023 minutes, 10 secondsan hour in the winter instead of 15. Why did you do that? Well, that's what the wind does in my region, in my area.
23:2023 minutes, 20 secondsOkay. And well, that brings your load way down because in the driver for infiltration has dropped. So now your
23:2723 minutes, 27 secondsload's much smaller. I love smaller loads. I love load reduction. All of those things are going to be evaluated
23:3423 minutes, 34 secondsas part of the the new process. And so we still want to have a way to call out software tools that are compliant with
23:4323 minutes, 43 secondsthe manual J process and the manual J intent to as much as we can improve that
23:5023 minutes, 50 secondsgarbage in garbage out aspect. There's is that's an interesting conversation that you're creating here. Like are you
23:5823 minutes, 58 secondssaying that there may be some more QA on on load inputs than you have right now?
24:0424 minutes, 4 secondsa heavier hand so to speak from AKA on what's going into these because that's one problem. I mean honestly it's a huge problem. We fight against it with code
24:1224 minutes, 12 secondsofficials. We fight against it with green building programs. We fight against it with all of it. I've made good good money over the years creating design review programs for people that
24:2124 minutes, 21 secondsjust don't understand manual J. But yet they're set up to police manual J for lack of a better word. You know what I mean? They don't know what's going on.
24:2724 minutes, 27 secondsThey're like any kind one of these green building certifications. Yeah, you must collect Manual J. you know, and then they're like, well, what's it even mean?
24:3424 minutes, 34 secondsIs it just some numbers on a piece of paper or what went into it? And so then, you know, there's a lot of nefarious actors out there when it comes to free money, especially with incentives and
24:4324 minutes, 43 secondsstuff like that. So, any little contractor that wanted to do the wrong thing and get the right amount of money for it was able to do that and still
24:5024 minutes, 50 secondsturn in paperwork until we set up these review programs. So, it would be interesting to see a take a more active
24:5724 minutes, 57 secondsinterest into how what is actually getting put into these things. You know, I don't know what that would look like for you guys. That's a big undertaking, but it would be interesting.
25:0625 minutes, 6 secondsAnd the struggle is for every bad actor, there's a good contractor that says, "I do have a special situation." When you
25:1425 minutes, 14 secondssaid that, I was thinking that Charlie Munger, you show me the incentive, I'll show you the outcome. Give me a lot of money to install a larger system. Guess
25:2225 minutes, 22 secondswhat's going to happen. But I was thinking about Allison Bales telling the story of a house that was in Colorado
25:3025 minutes, 30 secondsand big mansion. A lot of glass facing the mountain and the sun shine bounced off
25:3825 minutes, 38 secondsthe snow and it was cold outside and they were hot inside it and they wanted to run the AC. Running the AC in 32°ree
25:4725 minutes, 47 secondsweather or whatever it was not a good idea. So, there's some special things that you might need to do with ventilation to reduce the heat in the
25:5725 minutes, 57 secondshouse. you need some strategy other than running your DX cooling system.
26:0126 minutes, 1 secondDesign never stops being important. So that's one thing that that that there's a big point to be made like you can do all the calculations in the world but
26:0826 minutes, 8 secondsdesign is not a calculation. Okay? It is a design that serves the purpose of whatever someone's trying to achieve there. And I've been in situation those
26:1726 minutes, 17 secondsare little microclimate stuff like that is crazy. Like you get some lake effect in a place where there's not a lot of humidity. All of a sudden there's a lot of humidity. You know what I mean? Like
26:2526 minutes, 25 secondsthere's just different things that happen that you have to as a designer you have to be aware of. So I don't you know I don't think one necessarily
26:3326 minutes, 33 secondsdrives the other. Design is always paramount to whatever you're doing. For sure it's a challenge. I think that there are going to be situations that was an
26:4226 minutes, 42 secondsexample. I don't think that was necessarily the best example but there are I got the point like there are some things where it makes a wrong thing right. You know what I mean? Like
26:4926 minutes, 49 secondsit needs to assess to your point. Maybe it's the lake effect or it's next to a large body of water and so the relative humidity or the grains moisture
26:5726 minutes, 57 secondsdifference might be different than what's specified in manual J or on the Ashray climatic database
27:0527 minutes, 5 secondsand the good thing is gives you an out for that stuff like everything that's in it says but we want to give freedom and that's
27:1327 minutes, 13 secondsthat's a tough that's a tough even in the current current versions of the manuals though it's like okay if you got a situation document it I mean it's
27:2027 minutes, 20 secondsnot that big of a deal like if you have, you know, if you have a big equipment load because that's one of the things people always use is they'll put
27:2727 minutes, 27 secondsequipment in every room in the house and all these different loads that don't exist. But sometimes, you know, and I've made I go back in design review, I have found that nothing should surprise you.
27:3727 minutes, 37 secondsThere is always going to sometimes be a reason for something. So, we get these giant loads and sometimes I'm like, can you send us the documentation on where this stuff's coming from? Crickets.
27:4727 minutes, 47 secondsSometimes it's like, yeah, we already got it. Here's this theater thing this guy's using. Here's the AV room. Here's how many people's going to be in there.
27:5427 minutes, 54 secondsD. Like the guys that have those situations, they pretty much know why they did what they did and they can explain it. You know, good. If there's
28:0228 minutes, 2 secondsno explanation for it, then it's probably some bull crap, you know, that you got to get out of there.
28:0628 minutes, 6 secondsWell, and we also in and again in an effort to try and provide guidance.
28:1228 minutes, 12 secondsWe want to design for one set of conditions. X temperature outside, 75 inside. Why temperature outside, 70
28:2128 minutes, 21 secondsinside? So many people per occupants in the house based on the number of bedrooms. Well, what about my big July
28:3028 minutes, 30 seconds4th party? What about the big whatever gathering I hold on a regular basis?
28:3728 minutes, 37 secondsAbsolutely. That's that's extenduated.
28:4028 minutes, 40 secondsThat's different. You do need to address that, but you need to start with here's what your house needs 90% of the time.
28:4728 minutes, 47 secondsAnd if you've got 10% of these special situations, and it's usually a lot less than 10%, but let's say 10% of the time
28:5428 minutes, 54 secondsI am having a large gathering or I'm cooking out of my kitchen and or whatever the case may be, then you need
29:0229 minutes, 2 secondsto have a supplemental system. All right, let's add a mini split. Let's put in a supplemental system that can provide that extra capacity on uh
29:1129 minutes, 11 secondsSaturday night or uh Sunday morning or whatever the case may be. Now, now you're getting into sales.
29:1829 minutes, 18 secondsYou don't know that you're getting you're getting into sales. No, I'm serious because like this situation is very familiar to me that you're describing. So, I worked in a lead for
29:2729 minutes, 27 secondshomes program where it was in a tax abatement where a property tax abatement where literally you could get a half million dollars up to 15 years of the
29:3529 minutes, 35 secondsproperty tax abated if you built to lead platinum standards. So, like everybody was beating that went on for 20 years in Cincinnati, Ohio. So everybody was
29:4229 minutes, 42 secondsbeating down the doors to build these big giant McMansions that still complied with lead and also Energy Star and there was a bunch of other requirements on
29:5029 minutes, 50 secondsthem as well. A manual J is a part of all that. All the AA manuals are a part of all that. Lead requires them. Energy Star requires them. So we get down the
29:5829 minutes, 58 secondsroad with these guys and they'd be like, well this guy's going to have a party.
30:0130 minutes, 1 secondAnd I'm like, I heard it so much that I Xerox the paragraph out of Aammanuel J that actually says because it's spelled out in there and it says literally the
30:1030 minutes, 10 secondsexact situation. You're going to have a guy that's going to say once they have a party, here's what you should do. And the answer is what you said, supplemental heating and cooling. Here's
30:1830 minutes, 18 secondswhy it's a sales failure. Because I'm like, guys, it always comes they don't want to have to pay for that. Well, let me tell you something. If you're
30:2630 minutes, 26 secondsbuilding a million half dollar house and you can't convince them that for the thing that they want to do, they need to pay a little bit extra for it to make it
30:3430 minutes, 34 secondshappen, then you're a shitty salesman. I don't care what you say. That is a you problem, not a manual J or, you know, anything else problem. There's a lot of
30:4330 minutes, 43 secondsguys that want to blame their sales failures on things that they think that they're told they have to do. And I that's one thing that I hate. Let's
30:5030 minutes, 50 secondsseparate sales failures from technical requirements because they're two totally different things and two totally different conversations that intersect,
30:5930 minutes, 59 secondsyou know. All right, that's my soap box on all those sales failures. I think there's a lot of people with good intentions that want to install heat pumps and use heat pumps to heat the house all winter long.
31:1031 minutes, 10 secondsAnd I'm all for that if the heat pump can do that without drastically oversizing the cooling side of the
31:1831 minutes, 18 secondssystem because the oversized air conditioner has been a problem from day one. Climates.
31:2531 minutes, 25 secondsI hate it. I hate the politicalization of it and I hate contractors are going to put themselves in a position where they may have had
31:3431 minutes, 34 secondsthe best of intentions and it didn't turn out well for their customers and it may impact them. Well, here's the thing, man. Here's what
31:4231 minutes, 42 secondsliterally happens to these guys. And it's not even like I feel bad for the contractors because they don't have the train. These things just get forced on
31:4931 minutes, 49 secondsthem. And people they say they can do what they want, but they don't have the training that is required to understand the situation that they're put in because the stuff starts at the top.
32:0032 minutesEverybody, whatever the administration is or whatever, wherever it comes from, the marketing starts pushing this whole electrification thing, the heat pump
32:0732 minutes, 7 secondspush. And it comes from a good place. I think some people want to save the planet. They feel like this is the way to do it. So I'm not talking against or
32:1532 minutes, 15 secondsfor that. I'm just saying that is the situation that was created. So then these manufacturers are like, "Hey, this is the thing that everybody needs to be
32:2332 minutes, 23 secondstalking about." Then all of a sudden the manufacturers are telling these guys to sell heat pumps, but they don't talk to them about the house and they don't talk
32:3132 minutes, 31 secondsto them about the right situation for a heat pump. And then it just becomes a oneshot solution where people are like, "You need electrification. You need a heat pump. You need electrification. You
32:3932 minutes, 39 secondsneed a heat pump." And I'm here to tell you, it's so funny that you bring this up because Chris Hughes from TEC called me this morning. He's like, "Hey, you
32:4632 minutes, 46 secondsknow, I got something on my brain. I need to itch." And it's about these cold weather heat pumps and it's becoming a real issue because these heat pumps, the
32:5432 minutes, 54 secondsmarketing was marketed like you should do this, you should do this, you should do this. And one of the marketing is it's a two-way thing. It can heat and it could cool, which is technically true,
33:0333 minutes, 3 secondsbut the thing that it can't do is also dehumidify if it's doing a really good job at heating in the cold weather.
33:0833 minutes, 8 secondsThat's the one thing that you're not going to get and you're just not. So, I'm in a situation right now where I've been working inside a what started out as an EPA star grant for the city of
33:1733 minutes, 17 secondsCincinnati. They were doing a study. So, they basically had two different universities and they're looking at 21 multif family buildings in the
33:2533 minutes, 25 secondshistorical over the Ryan district of Cincinnati. Seven of them they were doing nothing to. Seven of them they were weatherizing and putting a gas furnace in. And then seven of them were
33:3333 minutes, 33 secondsfull electrification. Well, these are three course brick, no insulation historical buildings that you can't really do a lot to the windows because
33:4033 minutes, 40 secondsthe historical society doesn't let you do them. So that most of them have old single pane with storms and stuff that rattle. It's just one of those old school buildings. So they hired our
33:4933 minutes, 49 secondscompany to do the the right to weatherization scope to do all the load calculations to do the equipment specification to find contractors like
33:5633 minutes, 56 secondsthe whole nine yards we were hired to do. Well the challenge got down it there's so much that go okay like the mission is it sounds simple
34:0434 minutes, 4 secondselectrification we're going to take care they're going to put in they already have electric water heaters or they're putting them in they're going to change the stoves all out to electric the simple stuff they're going to take care
34:1334 minutes, 13 secondsof but we need you to put heat pumps in these 100-y old buildings. So the heat loads on these things, this is Cincinnati, Ohio. Your heating degree design temp is around 11 degrees. Okay.
34:2434 minutes, 24 secondsAnd these loads are 100,000 BTU loads for thousand square foot or whatever.
34:2934 minutes, 29 secondsThat's just what it is on the heating side. So insulation single pane. Yeah.
34:3234 minutes, 32 secondsYeah. So number one, what heat pump fits that situation? The answer is none. No residential heat pump fits that situation. Right. You could go to two
34:4034 minutes, 40 secondsheat pumps, but then you're doing crazy stuff to even get there in these little buildings to be able to put two heat pumps on them. So once we did the load
34:4934 minutes, 49 secondscalculation and the weatherization, like we're sliding in the home plate on five tons, you know what I mean? Like barely.
34:5434 minutes, 54 secondsGod, if we do all this stuff, great. And we air seal the hell out of these and we do blower door assisted air sealing in the units and we put in some different storms than what's in there right now.
35:0435 minutes, 4 secondsYou know, we spend all this money on weatherization. Maybe, just maybe, we can get these loads down to five tons.
35:1135 minutes, 11 secondsOkay, so that that's five tons of heating. They have two start out with three tons of cooling on the, you know,
35:1835 minutes, 18 secondsbecause it's in a non-cooling dominated climate. And so we're starting out, we're starting out with 100,000 BTUs of heating, around three tons of cooling,
35:2635 minutes, 26 secondsmaybe four on some of them. So then what happens is we shrink this load to get it down to five tons, but this cooling load goes all the way down a ton and a half all of a sudden. You know what I mean?
35:3535 minutes, 35 secondsBecause all the we did to get the heating load down, now it it also affected the cooling load. So now we're at a diversity of five tons on a heating
35:4335 minutes, 43 secondsside versus one and a half tons. So what do we do about that? The answer is there's not you can do about that.
35:4835 minutes, 48 secondsYou know what I mean? Like you have to think of a better plan.
35:5135 minutes, 51 secondsYou if you put in two and had so one's providing the supplemental heat and then the other one's providing all the
35:5835 minutes, 58 secondscooling, but other than that, right? And then he So here's the next kicker. So now A2L comes into play.
36:0636 minutes, 6 secondsRight now you're telling all these guys like this is another thing that people don't even you can't even fathom it unless you've been involved in it. A2L in a residential home is probably okay.
36:1636 minutes, 16 secondsA2L in a multif family building that is a hundred years old is a freaking nightmare. Okay? Because you have a code
36:2336 minutes, 23 secondsrequirement to fireprotect that line set from the living situation which means a
36:3036 minutes, 30 secondsventilated insulated shaft either running through the building or on the outside of the building. In a historical district to put anything on the outside
36:3836 minutes, 38 secondsof a building, you got to go through the most outrageous process to get it approved that you could even imagine.
36:4436 minutes, 44 secondslike you got to get a consultant and all kinds of other garbage. So that's out immediately. So only the next thing comes in is how do we get through three
36:5136 minutes, 51 secondscourse brick a insulated shaft through the whole entire building to run all these refrigerant lines up through and keep them protected. And I can tell you
36:5936 minutes, 59 secondsit derailed the whole project. We've been at this for a year trying to get this stuff figured out. I mean we got it. We're done.
37:0537 minutes, 5 secondsI was hoping you had the answer. I wanted to hear how it turned out.
37:0937 minutes, 9 secondsThey here two things happened. One is you got to get somebody that knows something about something and has done this because every state has a different
37:1737 minutes, 17 secondsanswer for what's happening. You get an engineer in Indiana, they're going to tell you, "Oh, it's no problem. We got an exception from the state. We can do it." You get an engineer in Cincinnati,
37:2637 minutes, 26 secondsOhio, or the whole state of Ohio, and they're going to tell you, "You got to go to the most micro jurisdiction that you can find and ask what their answer
37:3437 minutes, 34 secondsis because we don't have a state decision." And so then you got to for us, we're in the Hamilton County, city of Cincinnati. So, City of Cincinnati is
37:4237 minutes, 42 secondsjurisdiction having authority. City of Cincinnati hasn't even thought this through at all. Like, they don't have an answer for you. They want you to give them an answer. So, then we had to go
37:5137 minutes, 51 secondsand talk to some architects, get a bunch of different opinions, do all this stuff. We finally found one architect that had got an exception in the county
37:5937 minutes, 59 secondsthat they were in, not city of Cincinnati, but a different Ohio county where they were allowed as long because these are fourstory buildings. So
38:0738 minutes, 7 secondsinstead of having to have a shaft all the way through, you can come from the top two floors and you come from the bottom two floors. And that way you don't need the shaft because you're not
38:1538 minutes, 15 secondsgoing through every unit with those with the A2L line. So then we were able to get that exception right in. But I mean literally it took us 6 months to get
38:2338 minutes, 23 secondsthere because nobody knows anything about any of this stuff and it's all in the name of heat pumps, dude. You know, it's insane. And then it got to the
38:3138 minutes, 31 secondspoint too in this project where we al because it's heat pumps and because of the nature of heat pumps and everything else like this is also like 30-year-old
38:4038 minutes, 40 secondsduck work. So we're like this if we're going to do this like and we're putting our name on it and this thing has to work and we're going to commission it then we know for a fact that you can't
38:4938 minutes, 49 secondsuse the duck work that's in there. You got to redesign the duck work around the heat pump or else you're going to have some other problems that we can get into in the whole training or whatever. But
38:5738 minutes, 57 secondslike there's problems that are going to exist from that. So then that was another thing is like we were going back and through design reviews trying to get
39:0439 minutes, 4 secondsthe duck work. So finally the researchers are like enough of this They're like either give us a different solution or we're killing the project. So I said the solution was
39:1239 minutes, 12 secondsright in front of your face the whole time. All you had to do is ask like dual fuel. Like we give the heat pump the light work, we give the furnace the
39:1939 minutes, 19 secondsheavy work. Okay. And so they're like they like that because then they got another thing to compare. So for them that's great. It's another set of data points. They're like, "Yes, that is the
39:2739 minutes, 27 secondssolution." But I told the team that I'm working with, the otr team, which is like in between the research team and us. They have the people, the project
39:3539 minutes, 35 secondsmanagers. I told them like, "These people are winning." Like dual fuel people won because they're going to have the best comfort. They're going to have the cheapest bills. Like Cincinnati,
39:4339 minutes, 43 secondsOhio is a natural gas market in Duke, which is the cheapest gas in the whole entire country. So like these people are going to get the most when it's right
39:5139 minutes, 51 secondsfor the heat pump to work. It's going to be taking care of all that light temperature work. and then boom, the gas kicks in. You don't spend a dime extra.
39:5839 minutes, 58 secondsYou actually earn money on that situation once you get below a dollar CCF and all that stuff. So, it's just a better situation. The point is like you
40:0640 minutes, 6 secondscan't have these oneshot back pocket solutions for anything in HVAC because it just doesn't work that way. Like, it just does not work that way.
40:1640 minutes, 16 secondsSo, real quick, I think that there are some manufacturers that are pushing hard, but I would think that there's it's a combination, right?
40:2640 minutes, 26 secondsI think there's some uh probably some territory managers from some distributors representing some manufacturers
40:3340 minutes, 33 secondsand sometimes a manufacturer gets a bad rep when maybe it's a oneoff distributor that that may not fully understand all
40:4240 minutes, 42 secondsof the things that you just so eloquently stated. You know, I think there are a lot of distributors that have a lot of good, strong, skilled,
40:5040 minutes, 50 secondstechnically competent territory managers out there and other technical support fellas, but it doesn't take very many bad apples and everybody gets a bad reputation.
40:5940 minutes, 59 secondsWell, I'll give some guys a shout out right now. Like these guys, the Habagger Corporation, there's guys in Cincinnati, Ohio. Like I went to them with this
41:0641 minutes, 6 secondsproject and I'm like, "Here's what I'm trying to do." One thing that happened is Carrier had produced some they published some bad data at first on
41:1441 minutes, 14 secondsthese crossovers. So it looked like this thing could go all the way from the turndown on it is insane. Like the turn
41:2041 minutes, 20 secondsthe published turndown on the crossover which is a media base with carrier controls on it was at five tons it could turn down to under a ton and a half.
41:2941 minutes, 29 secondsThat's insane. Nothing is doing has that capacity. But when I got down the road with them they or that has that much variation in it. When I got down the
41:3841 minutes, 38 secondsroad with him, they're like, "That's one thermostat, that one controller that can do that. We're not even selling it with that controller. We'd rather see you
41:4541 minutes, 45 seconds24vt interface it." And he's like, "And then there's some things we can do on each end to" and they really they got they jumped into the project with me and
41:5441 minutes, 54 secondsthey helped me figure out the best way to really use their equipment in the situation we were trying to use it in.
42:0042 minutesAnd I will say that there is if you know what you're doing with that particular piece of equipment, there is some really cool things that you can do on either
42:0842 minutes, 8 secondsend of it to and when I say either end, I'm saying the outdoor unit and the indoor unit and some adjustments that can be made that can allow you to really
42:1642 minutes, 16 secondscall let that thing dehumidify and get the most use for the squeeze on the heating end of it, too. There are some
42:2342 minutes, 23 secondsadjustments if the manufacturer reps know what they're doing. they can come out and do like he there's stuff inside the air handler that can be done.
42:3142 minutes, 31 secondsThere's a lot of manipulation that can be done that can make it work instructions or is this some secret? I mean I don't maybe it is published in
42:3942 minutes, 39 secondsthere but they the stuff that these guys did I don't know that that it is because they in Florida my brothers this is
42:4642 minutes, 46 secondsanecdotal. This is pure anecdotal and okay I don't want this to be taken out of context like I'm not a carrier rep.
42:5242 minutes, 52 secondsThis is not information that I'm giving out as a carrier. Yeah. But this is just my experience with this equipment. My brother works for a carrier dealer in the biggest one in Melbourne, Florida.
43:0343 minutes, 3 secondsAnd those guys, they had a hu a bunch of problems in the beginning with those with those crossovers, too. They weren't dehumidifying, right? They were ready to
43:1043 minutes, 10 secondsquit. They're like, we they're getting spiffed out a ridiculous spiff on those things for the past two years because they were trying to get people buying them. So, they're getting spiffed to
43:1943 minutes, 19 secondssell them, but they were ready to give up the spiff. They're like, man, this is not worth it. Our customers hate these things. Right. So, the rep said, "Hey, let me come out." And it's not Habagger.
43:2743 minutes, 27 secondsThey have a different distributor down there, but he said, "Let me come out.
43:3043 minutes, 30 secondsLet me try to see what I can do." He did the same thing. He adjusted it for them.
43:3443 minutes, 34 secondsNow those things, that's one of their bestselling items. Now, from a dehumidification standpoint, those inverters will drag the air. Now, they
43:4243 minutes, 42 secondsare in a better situation than Cincinnati, Ohio, cuz they don't have heating loads to worry about. Okay. So, on the heat pump side, it don't really matter to them, right? Yeah. It doesn't matter to them what it's doing on the
43:5043 minutes, 50 secondsheat pump side because whatever it's doing, it's probably going to be good enough. You know what I mean? So, like that that Yep.
43:5743 minutes, 57 secondsYeah. In Cincinnati, you got that mixed climate. So it's just it's a it's a to deal with sometimes. You got to really consider things on both sides
44:0544 minutes, 5 secondsof the fence there. So design's paramount, but I think this equipment can dehumidify because I've heard Yeah, I think a lot of it can. My point
44:1344 minutes, 13 secondsis saying I think grease there's a lot I'll throw some brands out there like I think a lot of these pieces of equipment if you know what you're doing. This is
44:2144 minutes, 21 secondswhy like equipment education education education is so important. Whoever you can grab on to that knows about the equipment that you sell, you should get
44:2944 minutes, 29 secondsin whatever group you can and understand it because there are going to be things that can be done with any of these pieces of equipment. If you know what you're doing, you can fine-tune them.
44:3744 minutes, 37 secondsYou even got guys like Tim out there that they have the hot rod boss, you know, he's doing some different type of tuning up. There is simple tune simple
44:4544 minutes, 45 secondsinstallation details that are being missed on these things that can allow people to make them function a lot better than they are.
44:5244 minutes, 52 secondsDig, dig, dig. Don't settle that for I no you can't do that. It sounds like if you get to the right people
45:0045 minutesthere may be a solution for your for your piece of equipment.
45:0345 minutes, 3 secondsI think I think that's some of it is I think the problem is you got to know what's what. There's sometimes when there's nothing you can do about it. The equipment's not going to run because the
45:1245 minutes, 12 secondshouse is so well insulated. And then you need that's a different problem. You need a solution for when that thing is not running versus something that it's
45:2045 minutes, 20 secondsgoing to do that you can effect on it while it is running. you know, there's just knowing what playground you're in
45:2745 minutes, 27 secondsis a big deal for sure, you know. So, all right. So, great soap box there. Let's let's jump into a Qi because I know that's something that you want to talk about.
45:3545 minutes, 35 secondsYou guys want to promote that. I want to help you promote it. So, explain to the audience what that is, how it fits into what we were just talking about and everything else.
45:4445 minutes, 44 secondsWell, it's the other end of the equation, right? So, you have to do a good design. In the middle, you've got the actual work on setting the
45:5245 minutes, 52 secondsequipment. I tie it in. I start it up. I make sure that it's operating correctly.
45:5745 minutes, 57 secondsAnd then I commission it. I get those benchmarks. Is it actually performing like it should? I'm expecting this amount of air. Am I processing this
46:0646 minutes, 6 secondsamount of air? I'm expecting this low amount of duct leakage. Maybe you're testing the duct system and confirming
46:1446 minutes, 14 secondsit is as tight as we expected. And then refrigerant charge and even the electrical. I remember Richard Dean telling me a story that he installed one
46:2246 minutes, 22 secondsof the new whatever brand he was selling high-speed units and they installed it and did a great job on it and the
46:2946 minutes, 29 secondscustomer called back says it's not working and it was the last house on the last rural outpost of this particular
46:3946 minutes, 39 secondselectrical the transformer was and they were under voltage and so there are it's
46:4646 minutes, 46 secondspretty rare but if you're getting the right voltage and right amp draws from the equipment operation, documenting all of that, measuring what's going on when the air comes in and when it's leaving.
46:5646 minutes, 56 secondsIs the system performing as it should.
46:5846 minutes, 58 secondsAll of those aspects are captured or are the things that we're looking for in a quality installation. We prefer design,
47:0747 minutes, 7 secondsthe equipment, and then the distribution system if there is one. If I've got a duckless system, don't have to worry about leakage, don't have to worry about
47:1647 minutes, 16 secondsnecessarily air flow. That's a tricky one and this is anecdotal, but from my experience, from my anecdotal
47:2347 minutes, 23 secondsexperience, getting the proper air flow is not a problem with a new piece of equipment. It's very rare that a brand
47:3047 minutes, 30 secondsnew pick your brand duckless system doesn't deliver the design air flow.
47:3547 minutes, 35 secondsIf it's installed positionally correct, if it's too close to a ceiling, maybe sometimes there can be problems. But if you've got the right
47:4447 minutes, 44 secondsclearances from the manufacturer calls out, the equipment is going to perform.
47:4947 minutes, 49 secondsAnd as long as you understand the throw, that's the biggest airflow fall flaw that people have with that thing is as much deducted as it does duckless.
47:5847 minutes, 58 secondsBut those are the things that we're interested in for a quality installation checking on the other end.
48:0448 minutes, 4 secondsSo does that there's two different pieces to that. Am I right in saying that? two different is QI and then something else or
48:1148 minutes, 11 secondsso it's a challenge to do the eat the whole enchilada this if you had beard
48:1848 minutes, 18 secondsmeets food he would have sometimes a struggle eating the whole whatever eating challenge it is the design work
48:2548 minutes, 25 secondsup front I think a lot of contractors do installing the equipment correctly and then measuring how it's performing I think a few more that's a little smaller
48:3548 minutes, 35 secondsmajority or a smaller segment but the ducks system. Testing duct leakage, it takes some time. It takes effort. It
48:4348 minutes, 43 secondstakes a commitment. You've got to want to do that. And it's not always baked in to that price you just quoted for a replacement.
48:5148 minutes, 51 secondsAir balancing. And air balancing is more important on a new home. Are we getting the right amount of air to the right place?
48:5948 minutes, 59 secondsBut those aspects, design, the equipment, the distribution can be a tough
49:0749 minutes, 7 secondsload to carry. And so with measure quick, we said, let's can we get the equipment right? Is it the right size?
49:1449 minutes, 14 secondsAre we basing it on a load calculation?
49:1849 minutes, 18 secondsMaybe not. But are we at least making sure it operates correctly? Let's clear that hurdle first. We have the proper
49:2549 minutes, 25 secondsair flow. the refrigerant charge is correct because we've checked the air flow. And then there are some other electrical measurements we want to
49:3449 minutes, 34 secondscapture. If it's a fuel fired appliance, I want to make sure it's on rate. Are we combusting correctly or not? And so
49:4349 minutes, 43 secondsthose are the aspects that we're focusing on with our verified equipment operation. So if you do soup to nuts and
49:5049 minutes, 50 secondsyou look at the whole system, that's verified system performance because that's the whole system. But if it's just the equipment, is the equipment
49:5849 minutes, 58 secondsoperating correctly? We'll recognize that. We'll award a certificate for equipment that is operating correctly.
50:0650 minutes, 6 secondsAnd that's the effort. I'll tell the quick story, Jeremy. Energy Star came to us about 2010 and said, "Hey, we want
50:1450 minutes, 14 secondsyou to be the gatekeeper and only let good contractors in." And that's such a wide, you know, are they running a good
50:2250 minutes, 22 secondsoperation? Are they taking care of their people? Good marketing. They got clean, you know, or are they technically
50:3150 minutes, 31 secondscompetent? Or both. Hopefully, it's the whole package. Whatever it was, we knew we didn't have that insight. We weren't
50:3850 minutes, 38 secondscapable of doing that. So, what we said we could do is we can make sure they're licensed. We can make sure they have current insurance. We can give them an
50:4750 minutes, 47 secondsorientation, some basic training about Energy Star and about what we are expecting from them. And then we can provide some oversight.
50:5550 minutes, 55 secondsAnd the oversight was going to be two-part. We were going to have some ResNet HERS raiders at the time do some field evaluation. Then the ACCA was
51:0351 minutes, 3 secondsgoing to come along and about 10% of our accredited contractors a year. We rifle through the paperwork and look at their operation.
51:1151 minutes, 11 secondsAnd so that is how we started which was essentially make sure they can clear a few hurdles at the beginning and then I
51:2051 minutes, 20 secondspromise to do good work and then we're kind of coming in after the fact and if we find that they're not
51:2851 minutes, 28 secondsdoing good work we we take corrective action uh as necessary but we'd rather say I can show you I did
51:3851 minutes, 38 secondsgood work. I don't have to I say I promise. I can just prove it. And so quality installation, we would like to
51:4651 minutes, 46 secondscontinue to accredit contractors who promise to do good work, but we want to see them migrate toward I can prove I do
51:5551 minutes, 55 secondsgood work. And so our accreditation and our quality installation are going through another transition both moving
52:0352 minutes, 3 secondsthose contractors over as well as reinvisioning what that means. If I'm not an accredited contractor, but I'm
52:1252 minutes, 12 secondsdoing good work, I want to say, let's go ahead and give you accreditation. Let's give you that recognition. You need to prove your
52:2052 minutes, 20 secondslicense. You need to have insurance. You need to do all those things. But if you're doing good work, that's what we want. And so I would rather recognize
52:2952 minutes, 29 secondsthose good contractors and provide a way for Jeremy if his mom needs a system and
52:3552 minutes, 35 secondsshe's in somewhere else either he can call around and say, "Hey, do you know anybody in Shreport, Louisiana or in
52:4252 minutes, 42 secondsSavannah, Georgia or Augusta, Georgia, wherever the case may be?" Oh yeah, call up this company or Yeah, just go to the
52:5252 minutes, 52 secondsACCA. go to their directory and if they're on that list, that's a quality contractor. That's someone who's going to be [clears throat] able to
52:5852 minutes, 58 secondstechnically deliver a high performing system or equipment.
53:0453 minutes, 4 secondsAre you guys is QI listed on betterhvac.org is one of the It is not. We've we've been trying to get Yeah, we need to get out of We got
53:1253 minutes, 12 secondsto figure out that how to work with Bill and Kevin. Kevin on that.
53:1753 minutes, 17 secondsYep. Kevin, that's something that's Yes, that's something we need to figure out.
53:2453 minutes, 24 secondsThat's a good one. That's a good one just to get they're pushing people to that website to find good contractors.
53:2953 minutes, 29 secondsSo, if guys could say, "Hey, you know, we a Qi or however it works," that would be awesome to see on there.
53:3753 minutes, 37 secondsFor sure. Well, we're running up on our hour. We had a good conversation.
53:4153 minutes, 41 secondsAnything else you want to tell anybody before we jump?
53:4453 minutes, 44 secondsTons. We'll have to do this again, Jeremy. That's a lot of fun. Thank you for having me.
53:4853 minutes, 48 secondsYeah, I loved it. Great conversation. We can get into some winds, man. Emanuel D is coming up soon for their update on Emanuel D is coming up soon. We uh just
53:5653 minutes, 56 secondsfinished an audit of our standard our American national standard procedures.
54:0154 minutes, 1 secondJust finished that and I believe today or tomorrow the the final paperwork will be submitted. Alex Me's been working on
54:0954 minutes, 9 secondsthe users guide. So we'll have a new standard with new illustrations, not just a little microscopic version, something you can actually see.
54:1854 minutes, 18 secondsYeah, I cannot wait. I mean half that.
54:2054 minutes, 20 secondsThere's so many fittings in there that just don't even exist anymore. I cannot wait till that thing gets cleaned up.
54:2554 minutes, 25 secondsAnd that's another project on my to-do list is we need to do some research and testing on real boots. I've heard them
54:3254 minutes, 32 secondscalled PI boots. We call them some other RIA duck system and stuff like that using those 3-in ducks and those home run systems. Maybe mention
54:4054 minutes, 40 secondsit. I mean, they have their own way of designing and it complies with manual D, but it'd be nice to just see some mention of those different systems in
54:4754 minutes, 47 secondsthere. You It does. Yeah, they do. Yep. Yeah.
55:0655 minutes, 6 secondsYeah. Cool. All right, Wes. Thank you very much. I'll talk to you soon. I hope I see you at the next conference, whatever that ends up being. Who knows?
55:1555 minutes, 15 secondsAll right. I'll see you, man. Thank you.
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