0:011 second[music]
0:033 secondsI'm your host, Jeremy Begley. If you've ever spent any time in construction, you've heard the same story over and over again. Value engineer it, cut the
0:1212 secondsbudget, strip the good stuff out. Maybe someday we'll put it back. Well, today's guest took a look at that entire process and basically said, "What if we've been
0:2121 secondssolving the wrong problem?" Jeff Carroll is the president of Tartan Residential and he's proven that investing more in
0:2828 secondsenergy efficiency can actually bring more financing to a project, not less.
0:3333 secondsInstead of building the cheapest apartments possible, he is building high-performance workforce housing that's affordable, comfortable, and
0:4141 secondsdesigned to last. In this conversation, we get into oversized HVAC systems, why so many multif family buildings struggle
0:4949 secondswith humidity and comfort, the role of pop commissioning, and how a few smart design decisions can change the economics of a development. We also talk
0:5858 secondsabout why Jeff hired our team to verify the verification process and what we've learned together building these projects
1:061 minute, 6 secondsfrom the ground up. If you're an HVAC contractor, engineer, developer, builder, or just somebody who believes we can build better without breaking the
1:141 minute, 14 secondsbank, this episode is going to challenge a lot of assumptions. So, without further ado, here's my conversation with
1:211 minute, 21 secondsJeff Carroll. Everyone, enjoy. Hey everybody, welcome to the HBAC ADHD podcast. I'm your host, Jeremy Begley.
1:291 minute, 29 secondsI've got an awesome episode today. I'm talking with one of my good friends, Jeff Carroll. Jeff has a really great way of looking at financing large multif
1:381 minute, 38 secondsfamily projects and he's doing the opposite of swimming to the bottom. He's swimming to the top and still paying the same amount of money but close to it. So
1:471 minute, 47 secondswithout further ado, Jeff Carroll of Tartan Residential. I'll let you tell your story. Go ahead and introduce yourself. Tell everybody where you came from and what you're doing.
1:561 minute, 56 secondsGreat. Great. Thanks Jeremy. It's it's great to be here. Thanks for inviting me. No problem.
2:002 minutesI'm Jeff Carroll. I'm president of Tart Residential. We are a workforce housing development firm. And when I refer to
2:092 minutes, 9 secondsworkforce housing, a lot of people have a lot of different things in mind. First of all, all we do is rental housing and it's multif family. And we view
2:182 minutes, 18 secondsworkforce housing as being housing that's affordable to people that earn between 60% of area median income and
2:272 minutes, 27 seconds100% of area median income. Uh median income for the United States for a family of four is about a h 100,000
2:352 minutes, 35 secondsbucks. So it's people that make between 60 and 80,000 a year. They aren't rich, but these are the people that get up and
2:422 minutes, 42 secondsmake the world tour every day. And unfortunately, although they represent 30% of the rental marketplace, they
2:522 minutes, 52 secondstypically live in 50-year-old properties that are obsolete. They're not energy efficient. Many times they're on the
3:003 minutesother side of the tracks. They're the ones that get up and make the world turn every day. They're city workers, firefighters, police officers, nurses, construction workers, all of them.
3:113 minutes, 11 secondsThey're all hardworking. And our firm has figured out how to build into that space a product that's affordable to
3:193 minutes, 19 secondsthem, that competes pricewise with the 50-year-old product that they're in that's brand new, has all the amenities,
3:263 minutes, 26 secondsand is energy efficient, and we've used energy efficiency. We've leveraged it to make that happen.
3:343 minutes, 34 secondsSo, one of the really cool parts about what you're doing here is you I've been involved in a lot of multif family housing projects up front from cradle to
3:423 minutes, 42 secondsgrave from the beginning of the design process all the way till they got sold.
3:463 minutes, 46 secondsAnd the one thing that I know about these projects is you can come in with the greatest ideas ever, but everything is budget driven. So most of the stuff
3:563 minutes, 56 secondsthat makes sense gets feed out in the very beginning of the project because guys want to be able to meet this imaginary budget that they're never
4:034 minutes, 3 secondsgoing to meet anyway. Like I've never seen one of them meet it in the history of the entire every project that I've done. None of them have ever stayed on
4:104 minutes, 10 secondsbudget. Yet they still go to V and all kinds of stuff that really makes it a better place to live and in today's
4:184 minutes, 18 secondsclimate zone is 100% necessary. And when I met you, you said no, we're not going to do any of that. that in fact that's why I want you to be here. I want you to
4:264 minutes, 26 secondstell us the best way to do all this stuff and I'm still going to be able to finance the project the same way that or not the same way but I'm still going to
4:344 minutes, 34 secondsbe able to get enough financing to build the building that I want to build without feeling paying from it. So you want to describe that process like you
4:424 minutes, 42 secondsknow where how you got to that place and everything like that?
4:454 minutes, 45 secondsSure. Sure. So let's start with market rate multif family. Brand new market rate multif family. The cost to build is
4:534 minutes, 53 secondshere. The value is here. And that value is supported by a specific rent level.
4:584 minutes, 58 secondsOkay? As soon as you want to build something affordable, the cost doesn't change, but the value goes down because you have to hold your rents down. So now
5:065 minutes, 6 secondsyou got to fill a gap. And what most people do, and when I say people, I mean general contractors, subcontractors,
5:155 minutes, 15 secondsengineers, architects, they look at putting in cheaper windows, cheaper doors, cheaper walls, cheaper HVAC
5:245 minutes, 24 secondssystems to try to get these this gap to close. I looked at it and said, "Nah, we aren't going to do that. I'm going to
5:325 minutes, 32 secondslook at the energy efficiency of each and every component that goes into a building and I'll spend a little bit more if there's a payback. And what we
5:415 minutes, 41 secondsfound was by spending about $6,500 a unit more than traditional stick build housing, we end up bringing about
5:505 minutes, 50 seconds$50,000 worth of capital to the table to close and overfill that gap that otherwise would not have been available.
5:595 minutes, 59 secondsAnd it's counterintuitive, but it's exactly right. So, if you think about it, a tenants's monthly cost, housing
6:076 minutes, 7 secondscost is not just rent, it's rent plus utilities.
6:126 minutes, 12 secondsAnd in these affordable housing programs, I'll put D restrictions on the property. It says we won't charge any more than X. It's a number that's
6:206 minutes, 20 secondspublished by the IRS that allows us to categorize this properties being a workforce housing affordable project.
6:276 minutes, 27 secondsAnd the IRS and HUD will say repush utilities can't exceed, let's say, $2,000.
6:336 minutes, 33 secondsSo let's say utilities cost you 150 bucks, you can charge $1,850 on your rent. But if you can cut the utilities
6:426 minutes, 42 secondsfrom 150 down to 50, you can charge now $1,950 on your rent and you're still the
6:516 minutes, 51 secondstenants not paying any more than they were before.$1,950 on the rent. Boom. helps close that gap.
6:586 minutes, 58 secondsSo, what we found is now every dollar you save on utilities, a dollar more you can charge in rent. Every dollar more
7:067 minutes, 6 secondsyou charge in rent, you can put anywhere from $10 to $20 worth of debt on the property. Publicly available private
7:137 minutes, 13 secondsfinancing, you don't have to ask permission from the government. It's just supported by the project. We looked at this and we figured out how to build
7:207 minutes, 20 secondsinto this market by spending a modest amount of additional funds. adds very specific components that gave us net
7:287 minutes, 28 secondspayback and we were able to attract that capital and other forms of capital to the project that otherwise wouldn't have
7:367 minutes, 36 secondsbeen available and that's how we closed the gap and that's how we're building in this into this market now. So this is not imaginary. You've done two
7:447 minutes, 44 secondsprojects now, right? Like you've done you have Davidson Landing fully up operational. We're going to talk about some of the challenges of that. And then you have another one, Johnstone Farms,
7:527 minutes, 52 secondsthat's in development. Well, you already are in the midst of building those as well. And then there's a third one you've already purchased property for.
8:008 minutesSo I just want people to know four projects. Okay. Four. Oh, I didn't know.
8:048 minutes, 4 secondsWe started this initiative. I actually I started working when I got out of graduate school in 1988,
8:128 minutes, 12 secondsgot my MBA and I started thinking about where I wanted to be and I wanted to be in the affordable housing space. It's a noble place to be and if you can make a
8:208 minutes, 20 secondsgood living doing the right thing helping people out that's awesome.
8:248 minutes, 24 secondsThat's right in my daily. So I looked at that in I hate having to use government funds because every time you do there are hundred regulations that go with it.
8:358 minutes, 35 secondsIt's just incredibly difficult and cumbersome. Plus, dog gone it, you know, if we made TV sets 10 years ago for
8:448 minutes, 44 seconds$2,000 for a big screen TV and you can buy them for 200 bucks now. Why can't you do that with housing? Well, it's because you got all these regulations.
8:538 minutes, 53 secondsEveryone's got their thumb on the scale.
8:558 minutes, 55 secondsSo, it occurred to me if I were able to figure out how to minimize the amount of government oversight by using private funds, I should be able to get there.
9:059 minutes, 5 secondsAnd that's been my my entire program my entire career, how to build affordable housing, particularly into this
9:139 minutes, 13 secondsworkforce market, the holy grail of multif family housing without having to use any scarce element funds. And we figured it out, but it took about 30
9:229 minutes, 22 secondsyears. And it began with a small duplex project in Kansas City called Buchanan's Crossing. Originally, we were going to
9:319 minutes, 31 secondsbuild 24 units there, 12 buildings. And the city came along and we had our financing and everything put together.
9:389 minutes, 38 secondsOur plans were already approved. And the city came along and said, "Yeah, you know that manhole you're going to hit with new sewer, we want you to hit
9:469 minutes, 46 secondsanother one. It's 550 ft east of your site. You've got to acquire easement. of private property. Oh, and you got to
9:559 minutes, 55 secondscross a 144t ravine that's 40 ft deep and then you can hit the manhole over there. And
10:0310 minutes, 3 secondswhatever it costs, you're going to have to figure it out cuz we aren't going to we aren't going to help you with it. I said, "So, you expect these it was going to be a veterans housing project, you
10:1110 minutes, 11 secondsknow, and it's like you expect veterans to pay for this?" They said, "Oh, yeah.
10:1510 minutes, 15 secondsWe forgot to tell you. We want you to size it for 400 rooftops, but we are going to help." said, "Man, okay, this happens on this
10:2410 minutes, 24 secondshappens all the time." Okay, you get shook down at the last minute when you're when you're just trying to close
10:3110 minutes, 31 secondsa deal or you just closed it and you can't fight the city because then you end up, you know, they're going to inspect your construction. You just got
10:3810 minutes, 38 secondsto got to go with the punches. So, what I did was I stepped back and broke the project into two phases, a you know,
10:4610 minutes, 46 secondsthis an eight building phase and a four building phase. and uh went out and got the additional $500,000 worth of financing to pay for this bridge and this off-site um work that we had to do.
10:5810 minutes, 58 secondsAnd um when in the process of doing that, it occurred to me. I said, "This is a
11:0411 minutes, 4 secondsperfect opportunity to answer a question that I've had my entire career. The first half my career, I worked in the
11:1211 minutes, 12 secondsmanufactured modular housing industry, building manufactured home communities, operating manufactured home communities, and building modular subdivisions.
11:2011 minutes, 20 secondsEverything I did was with factory build housing. Everything was privately financed. It was from like 1988
11:2811 minutes, 28 secondsuntil like about 1997 or so. It was about 10 years. Then after that, I
11:3511 minutes, 35 secondsstepped into 2000 is really when I stopped doing that. I stepped into the tax credit financed development of
11:4311 minutes, 43 secondsapartment industry working as a consultant and we were in the middle of a recession in 2000. Acting as a consultant was the way to go. I learned
11:5111 minutes, 51 secondsa lot but every deal I saw was stick built. So why is it that in this publicly financed world everyone's
12:0012 minutesbuilding stick built and in this privately financed world everyone's using factory built? Why do these two worlds not merge at all? So I said this
12:0812 minutes, 8 secondsis a perfect opportunity. I do phase one stick build. I can do phase two factory build. So I started looking at it like
12:1612 minutes, 16 secondsat first I was going to do modular. And you know modular for 1200 square foot apartment unit. You got to break your
12:2312 minutes, 23 secondsunits into three pieces. Each piece has to be shipped separately in a flatbed truck. Might cost you two three bucks a
12:3112 minutes, 31 secondsmile to get it to sit. If it's 500 miles, it's 1,500 bucks potentially per
12:3812 minutes, 38 secondspiece. Three pieces, $4,500 just in shipping cost, which goes a long ways towards eroding the amount of labor savings he had for building in factory.
12:4912 minutes, 49 secondsSo I said, you know, my two are going to work. I need something else. And I started looking at structural insulated panels. It's been used in these exterior
12:5812 minutes, 58 secondswall panels or R28 or R26 or R18 or R16. There's a number of different types.
13:0513 minutes, 5 secondsThese exterior wall panels, you can put 10 units on a flatbed truck, assemble them on site. The the unit doesn't show
13:1413 minutes, 14 secondsup with wheels on it. It's less obnoxious to your neighbors. Plus, it's energy efficient. The modular units are still an R13 bad insulation wall. these.
13:2313 minutes, 23 secondsWe initially were looking at R28 panels.
13:2713 minutes, 27 secondsSo, we went ahead and did it. We paid more for the panels and we just said, "Let's see what we can learn." And side by side. Today, you' never even know
13:3513 minutes, 35 secondswhich one is which unless you're paying the utility bill. But it was an absolute success. We did it. We learned that with half the crew earning half as much per
13:4413 minutes, 44 secondshour, we could put up twice as much exterior wall in the day as a traditional framing crew. In fact, you
13:5113 minutes, 51 secondscould have two laborers and a guy that knows how to use a cot gun to level and you can boom boom boom boom boom and your walls are up and you're ready to
14:0014 minutesput your roof on and your roof truss is set down. I mean, you can be dried in a couple days. So, we looked at this and said, "Yeah, there's something here."
14:0814 minutes, 8 secondsThat project opened the door for us to put together a design sheret where we had a guy from Ashray, one of the Ashray
14:1514 minutes, 15 secondsfellows, guy named Chris Matthysse, Matthysse Consulting. He stepped in. He actually was writing the 2021 building
14:2314 minutes, 23 secondsor energy code at the time. Literally, he was a guy writing it. He was on our design team. We had our architects, our subs, our general contractors. We
14:3214 minutes, 32 secondsbrought in some mechanical engineers who kept wanting to minimize first cost. I kept having to kind of smack him a
14:3914 minutes, 39 secondslittle bit to get him to say, "Stop. We aren't looking that long. It's the natural instinct, man. That's how that's just how those
14:4614 minutes, 46 secondsprojects go." I told him, I said, "I want you to sit down with a piece of paper and a pencil and do the manual J calculations." And
14:5614 minutes, 56 secondshe goes, "I'm not going to do that." I said, "All right, they'll find another mechanical engineer. I need you to stop doing this where you run it through your model that's set up for the last time.
15:0615 minutes, 6 secondsto design something, you know, because I keep getting the old rule of thumb. Oh, you need a 2 and 12 ton system, you know. No, I don't.
15:1415 minutes, 14 secondsI cut my sensible heat in half.
15:1815 minutes, 18 secondsI cut my infiltration by a factor of four cuz I've got these opaque panels going in place now instead of having a a wall
15:2615 minutes, 26 secondsthat breathes. I need you to go ahead and just run the numbers. And he finally did. And he said, "Yeah, you only need about 3/4 of a ton." Said, "Great. put a
15:3415 minutes, 34 secondston in, you know, because threequarters a ton's hard to where you gonna get that at, right?
15:3915 minutes, 39 secondsYeah. Yeah. So, we went through this process. We had Virginia Tech was part of it. We brought you in on it, too.
15:4515 minutes, 45 secondsSo, went through this process. We tweaked it, came up with this design for a threestory building. Now, there are
15:5215 minutes, 52 secondsstructural challenges that were in there, too. These panels have a different loading capacity than a stickuilt wall. I didn't want to have a
16:0016 minutesrim band around every floor. And I sent everyone back to the drawing board and said, "I want you to hang the floor
16:0716 minutes, 7 secondstrusses from the inside of the panels. I do not want them running through the wall, leaving a rim bed." Said, "Well, why?" I said, "Number one, I eliminate
16:1616 minutes, 16 secondstraits from having to work on it." Number two, you're only putting a R six insulation in there or whatever the heck it is. And number three, there's
16:2516 minutes, 25 secondsinfiltration through it. I want the second and third floor and the first and second floors button up against one another with the only thing protruding
16:3316 minutes, 33 secondsthrough is just a little bit of the truss where it's got to hang on top of the wall. I want to close that off and cap it off. And we did, but it took some
16:4316 minutes, 43 secondsstructural engineering to make that work. So, we ended up coming up with this three-story product. And our next project that we built was Davidson's
16:5016 minutes, 50 secondsLand right across the street from the Kennan's Crossing in Kansas City. And we built that during COVID. We built it
16:5816 minutes, 58 secondswhen all the supply chain was all messed up, and prices were skyrocketing. And we brought it in ahead of schedule, under
17:0717 minutes, 7 secondsbudget, and before we had our units completed, we had 500 people on a waiting list for these 115 units. So, it
17:1417 minutes, 14 secondswas a total home run at a crazy time in the marketplace. So once that was done, we said, "Okay, let's now let's
17:2217 minutes, 22 secondsreplicate this on a site out just south of Charlotte in Rock Hill, South Carolina. That's Johnson Farms and Johnson Farms under construction now.
17:3117 minutes, 31 secondsAnd now we are in the position since we've done this and we replicated it twice. We've got another Rock Hill site that we hope to begin construction on
17:4017 minutes, 40 secondsnext year. And I'm now putting together a program to take this thing regionally in the Southeast and the Midwest to try
17:4817 minutes, 48 secondsto get three of these deals going on a year and build maybe 30 deals over the next 10 years and then work with a
17:5417 minutes, 54 secondsnational multifamily market rate developer that's looking to get into the middle income market and they've never
18:0118 minutes, 1 secondbeen able to do it. Sell the portfolio to them and work with them to make that happen and take this thing national. So that's my plan. That's how where we
18:0918 minutes, 9 secondswere, how we got here. So, I love it. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's great to see it working and to be a part of it.
18:1418 minutes, 14 secondsIt's been really refreshing to not be throttled by somebody that's only cares about budget and be able to actually dive into some of this stuff and be
18:2218 minutes, 22 secondslike, how can we make this really great but yet as cost effective as possible in every single possible way. So, doing
18:3018 minutes, 30 secondsthat, we follow some of the early challenges that you had early on. Do you want to talk a little bit about like from Buchanan to Davidson Landing now to
18:3918 minutes, 39 secondsJohnston Farms? Maybe lessons learned about the process, how you're refining that and things like that.
18:4418 minutes, 44 secondsYeah. Yeah. Great question. There are two components that are mission critical to
18:5118 minutes, 51 secondsus. One's the exterior wall and the second one is the atriac system. We'll start with the exterior wall. So during
19:0019 minutesco we had an administration change and in 2021
19:0819 minutes, 8 secondsJanuary of 2021 when when the Biden administration took over the new EPA cheap banned the use of the blowing
19:1819 minutes, 18 secondsagent that was used to make polyurethane foam. Now, if you remember back during
19:2519 minutes, 25 secondsCO how hard it was to buy furniture and it's because furniture has foam
19:3319 minutes, 33 secondsinserts. Those foam inserts are it had a blowing agent in it and they were banned and there were 10 manufacturing
19:4119 minutes, 41 secondsfacilities if I recalling correctly in the United States and immediately ceased operation because they were producing
19:4819 minutes, 48 secondsthis blowing agent for this bow and they're shut down out of business.
19:5219 minutes, 52 secondsThere's one pre-approved facility in I think it was Houston or
19:5919 minutes, 59 secondsLouisiana that was approved for a revised type of foam that apparently that evidently had a a lower carbon
20:0820 minutes, 8 secondsfootprint or a lower impact on the environment and all worldwide demand not
20:1520 minutes, 15 secondsonly for serial wall panels, not only for furniture, but for the spongy material in your dashboard. board on
20:2220 minutes, 22 secondsyour car for Yeti coolers for refrigerators for went immediately to that plant and they unable to keep up
20:3020 minutes, 30 secondswith worldwide demand. So man, we aren't going to be able to use polyurethane foam and we just close on this project.
20:3820 minutes, 38 secondsWhat do we do? So uh why don't we instead of using an R26 or R28 polyurethane foam, why don't we do 18 graphite infused polystyrene?
20:5020 minutes, 50 secondsSo we went out and checked it out. 10 producers of it in the world are all in the EU and EU said nada. I think that's
20:5820 minutes, 58 secondsno in some way which over there nada two Americans purchasing their
21:0621 minutes, 6 secondsso it's like okay what do we do out what's this going to do to us? So we ended up with an R16
21:1421 minutes, 14 secondspanel that was just traditional polystyrene. We said this is what we're going to have to use. So in the effort of trying to save the environment, they
21:2121 minutes, 21 secondsjust kind of ruined the environment a little bit.
21:2321 minutes, 23 secondsHere's the interesting thing. We modeled the R16 wall panels and there's only
21:3021 minutes, 30 secondsabout a 10% energy loss, which isn't nearly as much as we thought. I would have thought at the time that it was a
21:3821 minutes, 38 secondslinear thing between the R value and the energy savings, but it wasn't.
21:4321 minutes, 43 secondsThere's a definite point of diminishing return. It's usually zero to R19. After that, you got to go all the way up to 50 to get the same exact bang for the buck that you got from zero to R19.
21:5321 minutes, 53 secondsThen you've got then you've got incremental cost associated with that and doesn't pay to do it. What we found is you've got other forms of energy
22:0222 minutes, 2 secondsinefficiencies or energy, you've got sunlight making it in through your windows. That's going to heat or whatever your units in the summertime
22:1022 minutes, 10 secondsthat you're going to have to cool for that. and your wall panel. It doesn't matter what wall panel you got. That radiant energy, you still got to deal with it. Got the same thing. You've got
22:1922 minutes, 19 secondsthe same amount of lat and heat coming from your washing machine and your dishwasher and all that stuff.
22:2522 minutes, 25 secondsAnd plants, I guess plants give off latent heat too and people. So all that none of that changes. Okay.
22:3122 minutes, 31 secondsSo you still have that happening. So really you're it might be linear on your sensible heat, but it's untouched on the
22:3922 minutes, 39 secondsother stuff. But the other big thing was infiltration.
22:4422 minutes, 44 secondsAnd so we built with the R16 panels and we got to the end of our construction and then we did our final testing with
22:5122 minutes, 51 secondsour energy raider and sure enough our our AC50 was I guess with traditional construction it's like five six seven.
23:0123 minutes, 1 secondIt depends. Yeah, it depends on what they're doing. If they're using exterior insulation, we see it get down there around the twos, but just regular stick built with no exterior. Five or
23:1023 minutes, 10 secondssomething like that. Four or five is about where they live at. Yeah. A little bit of a leaky house, but yeah, we were at one and a half.
23:1723 minutes, 17 secondsYeah, I know you got Yeah, exactly. When you get into sips, man, there's just so much you can do. It changes the game, everything. There's no air moving around. So, you put the registers in a
23:2523 minutes, 25 secondslot of different places you normally wouldn't put them, but just it changes a lot of what you can do on the inside when you go to the for sure.
23:3223 minutes, 32 secondsEliminating that rim band helped us. And it occurred to us a sense that why get 4x8 sip panels. Why don't we just do a
23:4123 minutes, 41 secondssip panel for the whole wall? The manufacturer can do a 20 foot wide sip panel. Sure, the whole wall and just drop it in place with a lull or
23:4923 minutes, 49 secondssomething like that. And now you don't have any any partitions between the panels. It's just an opaque wall. So
23:5623 minutes, 56 secondslong as you install your windows, right, and your doors, right, you're going to be even lower. Plus, the panels will cost less because they don't have to be cut, you
24:0524 minutes, 5 secondsknow? So, all this stuff came to us and it's like, yeah, there's other things we can learn. There's other things we can do. So, we learned a lot about the
24:1224 minutes, 12 secondspanels. Now, on that same project, we also learned a lot about the HVAC.
24:1724 minutes, 17 secondsUm, we had to deal with the mechanical engineer. He was uncooperative. We finally got him on board, but he ended
24:2524 minutes, 25 secondsup messing up. The HVAC contractor had some air hammers that cost about 100 bucks less.
24:3624 minutes, 36 secondsAnd he contacted the engineer and said, "Hey, can I make this swap?" And this
24:4324 minutes, 43 secondsRFI, he put it in, it never went to the contractor team or the energy efficiency team. The engineer approved it.
24:5324 minutes, 53 secondsHe put in these saving a 100 bucks these air handlers that were mismatched with
24:5924 minutes, 59 secondsthe outside unit. So we had a 21 sear unit or outside unit and they were putting air handlers in there that were
25:0725 minutes, 7 secondslike 15 sear or something like that or 12. The other thing there's a little bit of a technical audience listening. I think we're talking Davidson's Landing
25:1525 minutes, 15 secondsright here. And so those were the carrier crossover outdoor units, the inverter units. You use those right when they came out. Is that correct? That's
25:2325 minutes, 23 secondswhat you originally had in there. That's what's in there right now. I think so. Yes.
25:2725 minutes, 27 secondsYeah. So the point I'm making is this, like there's a very specific air handler that has to go with that thing anyway to maintain the efficiency of it. And so
25:3525 minutes, 35 secondsthe minute the guy stepped outside that he made a clear indication that hey the contractor didn't really understand the relationship of that matchup in the
25:4325 minutes, 43 secondsequipment that you guys were putting in and also too the engineer which is very typical. They don't even care. They usually put on there comparable. And now
25:5125 minutes, 51 secondsthere this is a thing that we're into even with these engineers right now is where because of the specity of the inverter and the matchup that needs to
25:5925 minutes, 59 secondsgo with it. You can't say it workable because the next piece of equipment might operate totally different. They have a different commissioning protocol.
26:0626 minutes, 6 secondsThey have a different type of efficiency rating and everything. So engineers really in my mind, this is just one of my soap boxes, like in my mind, engineers really
26:1526 minutes, 15 secondshave a lot of stepping up to do and changing the way that they do their specifications and it needs to be true.
26:2126 minutes, 21 secondsSpecifications means that you are specifying something that works in that job. It can't be a thing that came from the last job and a job before that like
26:2826 minutes, 28 secondsyou said using these boilerplated templates where they're just like, okay, that's your specification. Okay, that's your specification. Boom, there's my
26:3626 minutes, 36 secondsstamp. You know, and that's what's happening. That's why these problems exist that you're talking about right now. And for you, that caused a big headache. It kept you from getting
26:4326 minutes, 43 secondsfunding, right? Or financing or something like that to do anyway.
26:4826 minutes, 48 secondsWe were looking for a net zero ready project. Oh, yeah. Yep.
26:5226 minutes, 52 secondsAnd we were we hit it with the wrong air handler by a fraction of a point. Okay.
27:0027 minutesWe ended up still being like a mid40s hers, you know, right? Yeah. But we were designed to be
27:0627 minutes, 6 secondsa high30s hers. Okay. But apparently we ended up in borderline on getting our
27:1427 minutes, 14 secondsnet zero ready. The net zero ready had some funding associated with it. What happens is if you have a net zero ready project, you can get better loan
27:2227 minutes, 22 secondstransaction terms. And that's all stuff that I was leveraging for this project.
27:2827 minutes, 28 secondsAnd I had no idea that this was going on until we were doing our final testing at the very end of this project and the equipment was already in. So I was
27:3727 minutes, 37 secondspretty angry. We lost about $10 per unit per month on energy efficiency which meant that our rents had to come down 10
27:4627 minutes, 46 secondsbucks to make up for it. And $10 per unit per month is $120 per unit per year. You take that for 115 units. It
27:5527 minutes, 55 secondsall goes to the bottom line. We lost about a half million dollar from that one mistake. Wow.
28:0128 minutes, 1 secondThat one mistake cost us at least a half million dollars in value. So we said, "All right, so what do we do in the
28:0928 minutes, 9 secondsfuture?" The mechanical engineer doesn't work for the architect anymore. It works for me. Yep. In the future, mechanical
28:1728 minutes, 17 secondsengineer, if they're ever presented with an RFI, the entire energy team has to sign off on it. In the future, I buy the
28:2628 minutes, 26 secondsequipment and my subcontractor installs it for me. There's no swapping it out. I
28:3228 minutes, 32 secondsbuy the equipment direct. And you know, we specified that we're buying it. And by doing so, we actually are able to
28:4028 minutes, 40 secondseliminate some of the markup on the equipment. I know that that probably makes some of the subs uncomfortable.
28:4628 minutes, 46 secondsAnd maybe some subs say, well, we won't install your equipment for you then. But I will have zero room for error on this ever happening to me again. In the
28:5528 minutes, 55 secondsfuture, we my entity that buys the equipment will provide a warranty for labor and
29:0329 minutes, 3 secondsmaterials and we'll look for the exact same warranty from our subs and from the manufacturer. We want to make sure that
29:1129 minutes, 11 secondsif there's a mistake in a problem or some problem with equipment from the manufacturer that the entire time that
29:1829 minutes, 18 secondswe're holding that project at least for you know 3, four, 5 years we got warranties in place and if we have to set aside funds to warranty it ourselves
29:2729 minutes, 27 secondswill do that. We decided also that we would insert ourselves into the preventative maintenance loop making sure that the outside units are cleaned
29:3529 minutes, 35 secondsregularly free irons checked right that the inside unit the filters are changed.
29:3929 minutes, 39 secondsWe change the filters every month whether they need to be changed or not because I want one of my people in each and every unit to see the unit. You can
29:4629 minutes, 46 secondslearn a whole lot about your tenants by being in there every month and seeing what's going on. And there have been tenants that change locks, tenants that
29:5429 minutes, 54 secondsunplug the dehumidifier, tenants that do all these different things. We want to know about it. We want to know about it in advance before
30:0230 minutes, 2 secondsthere's a pro. And what I'm hoping is the next step will be I'm hoping that the next project or two I'll be able to
30:1030 minutes, 10 secondsfind either a retiring contractor that's looking to make a little money in their retirement or a brand new one that just
30:1830 minutes, 18 secondsgot their license that's looking to start a business and we're we're going to take much of the HBAC work at house.
30:2530 minutes, 25 secondsWe have to have control over that. It is missionritical.
30:2930 minutes, 29 secondsOne thing I want to highlight too is that you also hired us. So basically, this is a really unique relationship for us because you already had a
30:3730 minutes, 37 secondsverification team that was doing the Energy Star verification and all the things the green consulting team would
30:4430 minutes, 44 secondsdo, but you also reached out and hired us as a third party consultant to make sure that everything's getting built the way that you want it and the way that
30:5230 minutes, 52 secondsyou specified it and the way that us, our design team specified it and instead of just relying on the green team to say, "Hey, here's some things you may or
31:0131 minutes, 1 secondmay not fix." and you know, yeah, sure you met your certification, but that's about as far as that type of advice usually goes, right? And you had a lot
31:1031 minutes, 10 secondsof problems with the verification on the Davidson landing that you hope to avoid by hiring a team that makes sure
31:1731 minutes, 17 secondseverything P's and Q's are crossed, keys are crossed, and eyes are dotted. That's right. And your vision is already there, and all the green team, the verification
31:2531 minutes, 25 secondsteam has to come in and do what they're good at, which is check the boxes and say, "Yeah, it meets this program requirement." But the onus is not on them to make sure that your great efficient design is getting implemented.
31:3631 minutes, 36 secondsYou just you hired our team to make sure that was happening. I thought that's a super unique outlook at the way to do business on these type of projects here.
31:4631 minutes, 46 secondsWell, I appreciate that and we're happy to have you helping us. Well, just like the mechanical engineer
31:5331 minutes, 53 secondswho traditionally works for the architect, the energy raider is traditionally working for the lender or
32:0032 minutesthe equity investors or some group other than the sponsor team. Sponsor team pays them, but they're a third party
32:0832 minutes, 8 secondsindependent. I wanted somebody inhouse looking out for my interest, not looking out for the lender's interest or
32:1732 minutes, 17 secondsanything like that. Not that I'm not concerned about the lender's interest.
32:2032 minutes, 20 secondsOf course I am. But I needed somebody to watch out for my interest as well. That's why we brought you guys on board.
32:2732 minutes, 27 secondsAnd check the checker for us, which is what we wanted. Check. I love it. Check. Verification.
32:3232 minutes, 32 secondsWe're on a big verification kick. We have a whole program built called verified that had to do with exactly what we're talking about. But basically
32:4032 minutes, 40 secondsmaking sure your design meets the criteria, making sure that it is going to perform all the testing we're doing for you guys at the end of the project.
32:4732 minutes, 47 secondsthan what we did in the middle in the beginning and all that stuff like we've actually taken that and turned it into a structured product that we now sell and
32:5432 minutes, 54 secondsa lot of that came from talking to you and having conversations with you about the things that you guys went through and stuff like that. So I think that the
33:0233 minutes, 2 secondsway that your entire way of looking at this is the opposite of way of everybody in the industry looks at it and it's really benefited being able to build a
33:1133 minutes, 11 secondsbetter building and provide a service to people that may not get this level of service and building from anybody else.
33:1733 minutes, 17 secondsI think that's the piece that really can't be overstated is I've seen people build lead houses, lead green platinum houses in an environment where there's a
33:2633 minutes, 26 secondstax abatement that gives them a half million dollars to build a whole another half a house and they get to do everything they want. But the people at the income levels that you're talking
33:3433 minutes, 34 secondsabout, it's usually you got to take what you got is out there. you're taking an extra step to make sure that they get the same product that somebody with a
33:4233 minutes, 42 secondsmuch better income and much more resources would be able to access. And I think that that the way that you're doing it is so inventive because it
33:5133 minutes, 51 secondsdoesn't really keep you from making a profit. You're still a capitalist and you still plan on making a profit off of this, but at the same time, you're able
33:5833 minutes, 58 secondsto really help that demographic. And I think that's exactly speaks a lot. So one of the management issues in fact the
34:0734 minutes, 7 secondsinnovations we've come up with aren't technical right per se I mean there's nothing new about the HVAC equipment for so it's
34:1534 minutes, 15 secondsbeen out there used for others the panels have been used in student housing and assisted living and and a variety of
34:2334 minutes, 23 secondsdifferent single family homes been used in a variety of different settings but they haven't made their way into the multifamily world
34:3234 minutes, 32 secondsbecause Many of the developers, the designers, the architects, the engineers, they're copy paste and repeating. They know exactly what it
34:4034 minutes, 40 secondscost to build the last project and they're afraid to do what I did on the kids crossing one and two split the project.
34:4634 minutes, 46 secondsLet me let me paint a picture for you guys because I can do this very easily.
34:4934 minutes, 49 secondsSo I I personally anecdotally, but also I've been the verifier. So, I verify affordable housing market rate, what
34:5834 minutes, 58 secondsthey call market rate, affordable housing that's inside the LITC that's built with LITC dollars. Anybody that's listening that knows that will know exactly what I'm talking about. And in
35:0735 minutes, 7 secondsthose those buildings, here's what you get. You get oversized HVAC because the the builder or the hires an arch or an
35:1535 minutes, 15 secondsengineer or hires an architect or an engineer team or the MEP team, they do not do a real load calculation. They
35:2235 minutes, 22 secondshire a verification team because all these projects have to get Energy Star verified. Every single one of them. The verification team is scared to death of
35:3035 minutes, 30 secondsthe engineers. They don't want to say anything about what the engineers are doing. They don't want to poke that bear. I've had every single reason why
35:3735 minutes, 37 secondsthese guys don't accurately review the load calculations that are coming from the engineer and hold their feet to the fire and be like, "No, this is way too
35:4435 minutes, 44 secondsbig for this. You guys need to show me where you're coming up with this." And I have set people that do want to know.
35:5035 minutes, 50 secondsI've set up full review programs where I give them the empowerment to be able to say, "Here's the documents you need to request. Here's what you need to look
35:5735 minutes, 57 secondsat, and here's what needs to match up." And every time these engineers are way off base, they don't have a leg to stand on when it comes to what they're sizing this stuff off of. And they put these
36:0536 minutes, 5 secondsthey and here's how they do it. One bedroom, one ton, two bedroom, two tons, two, three bedrooms, three tons. That's the way the shit's sized. So, like when
36:1236 minutes, 12 secondsI go into the units and I do the verification, if I'm a third party and I'm not in control of the project from the green side and I'm just hired to
36:2036 minutes, 20 secondscome in here and do the testing, I have no control over this stuff. But I do see it. And so what I see is when I'm inside these units in the middle of the
36:2836 minutes, 28 secondssummertime, they're cranking the thermostats down to 70° to try to get them comfortable. And the humidity in there is like 85%. I'm not even joking.
36:3636 minutes, 36 secondsI've measured it. 85 65 75%. They're just way oversized. The ventilation is just a brown fan that brings in outside
36:4536 minutes, 45 secondsair at random times. They don't even ever set it up right or anything like that. Hooked right into the system.
36:5036 minutes, 50 secondsOkay, it's literally the worst situation. You're just creating a big wet box and later on they have to come in, put in wall de dehumidification or
36:5736 minutes, 57 secondssometimes they don't end up having to move people out, fix mold issues. Like literally I have a project that's not one year old. I got called back to the entire
37:0537 minutes, 5 secondsbottom floor is soaking wet because the the they're underground and the air conditioning is three tons on three bedroomedroom units and it's running on
37:1337 minutes, 13 secondsoff on off and they're just sapping wet buildings. So that is the affordable housing that's getting built over and over again. I've
37:2137 minutes, 21 secondsmade a good living off going across the country and telling people the same thing over and over and over again. Okay, we got paid to just repeat
37:2937 minutes, 29 secondsoursel for a whole summer. I swear to God. Sure.
37:3237 minutes, 32 secondsSo now then I meet you. You're building the same exact type of building. Not the same exact type of building, but in the same exact finance bracket, I should
37:4037 minutes, 40 secondssay, trying to serve the same market, maybe an adjacent and a little bit like affordable housing sometimes under LITC
37:4737 minutes, 47 secondsgoes the people that are under the income requirements that you're talking about. But it also rents. It's income adjusted. So they do rent all the way up
37:5537 minutes, 55 secondsto the, you know, income level that you're also speaking on. So then what your income level is a little more workforce development and affordable
38:0338 minutes, 3 secondshousing, but at the end of the day, it's the same financing mechanisms and it's the same programs that both of these type of buildings go through. So you get
38:1238 minutes, 12 secondsthat building versus the building, the unit you're building, it's the same size where it's the properly sized HVAC, they
38:1938 minutes, 19 secondshave an a dehumidifier in them because we know even if we size it right, there's going to be days when the thing's not running at all. People want to crank the thermostats down, a bunch
38:2738 minutes, 27 secondsof weird stuff. So you provide the in-house dehumidification and the properly designed ventilation.
38:3438 minutes, 34 secondsSo it's a actually a very welldesigned operating building that works like you would expect it to build that people really have feel good about living in
38:4338 minutes, 43 secondsand want to live in. These two buildings are built same side by side. The only difference is this team is worried about getting the budget as small as possible
38:5238 minutes, 52 secondsand where every dime and every dollar is going to come from. and you've created a financing mechanism where it is actually dependent on making the building better.
39:0039 minutesIt's like two opposite worlds. It's insane to sit here and watch and be a part of.
39:0539 minutes, 5 secondsYeah. And so when you oversize a unit, I mean, you know better than me. When you oversize a unit, it cycles on and off.
39:1239 minutes, 12 secondsIt costs more just to buy it because it's oversized. Cycles on and off, which means it's wears out, has to be repaired
39:1939 minutes, 19 secondsor replaced faster. So it's and it introduces humidity into your unit because it well it condensate every time
39:2739 minutes, 27 secondsit fires on you end up with warm air cooling so quick you end up with condensate on your walls.
39:3339 minutes, 33 secondsWait a new point happening over and over again and in multiple different places in the house. Any condensing surface turns into a condensing surface. I've
39:4039 minutes, 40 secondsbeen in some of them so bad with the building owners one time the guy goes we were in one of the units and the tenant was in the other room. He goes I think this lady spilled pop all over the
39:4939 minutes, 49 secondsfloor. It's a non-sticky floor. I'm like, "Yeah, that's water. It's not pop.
39:5339 minutes, 53 secondsThat's water." Because there that's how much water is in this this apartment building. Every surface that can condense right now is condensing. You put your hand on the counter, it's wet,
40:0140 minutes, 1 secondtoo. It's just moist in the whole entire place. So, yep. Yep. So, that's kind of the thinking behind it. We all want to live
40:0940 minutes, 9 secondsin a world that's we're breathing good air and drinking good water and all that. and we're trying to do the right thing by putting our recycle stuff in a
40:1840 minutes, 18 secondsrecycle bin and not throwing stuff out the window while we're driving on the freeway and all that. I get it. I'm not like trying to save the world.
40:2640 minutes, 26 secondsI was just trying to save a penny. And what ended up happening is we ended up with a net zero ready product that has
40:3440 minutes, 34 secondswon awards and all I was trying to do is save money by investing carefully into the
40:4240 minutes, 42 secondsappropriate components that allowed me to get there. They had the biggest payback. It was the HVAC and the exterior walls. So we ended up doing our
40:5040 minutes, 50 secondspart to save the planet and saving a penny and making investors happy and making tenants happy and all of that.
40:5640 minutes, 56 secondsSo, it's great and we're delighted with what we've got and now we're trying to figure out how to take what we've learned and to do the the next thing and
41:0541 minutes, 5 secondsit's probably going to be I mentioned it there are a number of innovations they aren't huge but the combination of which has never really could have been
41:1441 minutes, 14 secondstried using exterior wall panels changing the way the design process works will reach maximizing value to
41:2241 minutes, 22 secondsminimizing cost bringing the engineers instead are working directly for me.
41:2841 minutes, 28 secondsBringing in a checker, checking the checker who works directly for me.
41:3341 minutes, 33 secondsBuying the equipment directly ourselves, making sure it's warrantying it ourselves if necessary. Doing the
41:4241 minutes, 42 secondspreventative maintenance, doing the maintenance and closing the loop so that when we design the next project, we said, "We're making the mistake we made on that project again. We're going to do
41:5041 minutes, 50 secondsthis instead so we can learn it. We can close the loop." And you don't do that by sticking your head in the sand, as all owners have done in the past. They
41:5841 minutes, 58 secondsend up saving a nickel on their HBAC equipment and you end up losing a dollar, a $100 operating it and
42:0842 minutes, 8 secondscallbacks and maintenance and everything else. That's one you guys are dealing.
42:1242 minutes, 12 secondsWe don't have time to get into it on this, but I know you're dealing with on Davidson's Landing right now. A bunch of bad compressors and bad boards, stuff
42:1942 minutes, 19 secondslike that, which is a piece that's going to get solved in the next project because we're going to be completely commissioning every single unit individually.
42:2742 minutes, 27 secondsEveryone, we're not sampling, we're not doing anything. We're commissioning every single unit precisely to making sure that it performs right and benchmarking it and everything that
42:3642 minutes, 36 secondsneeds to be done. So that's another lesson that got learned right now just because of CO and a bunch of other things. People didn't even understand these inverters when they were getting
42:4442 minutes, 44 secondsinstalled and you guys are kind of paying the price of that right now and having to go back and fix it. So that's another thing that we are going to be able to straighten out in this next
42:5242 minutes, 52 secondsiteration of things that's going to work a lot better than it did before.
42:5542 minutes, 55 secondsYeah, I'm glad you brought that up, Jeremy. That was something that was startling to me. these projects during co when the world was shut down. I was
43:0543 minutes, 5 secondsthinking how do I make my residents recessionp proof and how do I make them AI proof? How do
43:1243 minutes, 12 secondsI make them AI proof and recession proof? And I said I know why don't we do scholarships so that they go back to
43:1943 minutes, 19 secondstech school. So I talked to some tech schools and they said nah you don't need scholarships.
43:2543 minutes, 25 secondsHalf the people that pretty much everyone's got a scholarship when they come here. Half of the people that have a scholarship never finish school. What
43:3243 minutes, 32 secondsyou need to do is give them incentive to finish school. So we designed a line of entry-level single family homes where we
43:4143 minutes, 41 secondsdid the same thing. We leverage the energy efficiency. Now instead of keeping the payment lower, the idea is to offset the down payment on the home.
43:5043 minutes, 50 secondsRight. And what we're doing is we're finding local builders we can work with and we've got the design. It's done.
43:5743 minutes, 57 secondsfind a lot with a realtor or broker to find a finished lot to put a home on.
44:0244 minutes, 2 secondsWhat we can do is a resident living on our property that finishes their tech school in in an area that actually makes
44:0944 minutes, 9 secondsthem AI and recession proof. We probably aren't going to do it for a Greek poetry graduate. Not that I have anything against Greek poetry. I love it, but
44:1744 minutes, 17 secondsthat's not going to that's not going to pay you bills. Okay.
44:1944 minutes, 19 secondsYep. So, um, you know, you get your HVAC contractor's license or you get your child development license or your nursing certification or something.
44:3044 minutes, 30 secondsI mean, with all the money that's going into promoting the trades right now, there's something to that too, man. I know that program you are working on there.
44:3844 minutes, 38 secondsThere is a big tiein with the way the trades is getting promoted right now and the amount of money we're doing. Yep. Yeah.
44:4544 minutes, 45 secondsYep. So what did I do during COVID when the world was shut down and I had nothing to do said you know something
44:5444 minutes, 54 secondsI'm going to go back to trade school. So here I am I got an engineering degree from Clemson and I got an MBA from Harvard Business School and I said what
45:0245 minutes, 2 secondsthe heck I'm going to get my HVAC service technician certification through ACCA.
45:1045 minutes, 10 secondsI I took the manual J courses and the manual S or whatever it is, you know, I'm not going to go out.
45:1745 minutes, 17 secondsI wanted to be able to sit down and size these things and understand how it worked myself because the thing that we
45:2545 minutes, 25 secondswere the other innovation we were this missionritical stuff, your HVAC, your exterior walls, you got to roll up your
45:3245 minutes, 32 secondssleeves and you got to manage it very carefully. You can't.
45:3545 minutes, 35 secondsHeck yeah, man. That's such an important lesson. They cannot be hand off at all.
45:3945 minutes, 39 secondsI get hands off your hands up and now I I can speak kind of speak the language. I'm no expert, but I I
45:4745 minutes, 47 secondsinteract with you quite a bit on all that stuff and you keep up, man. I'll tell you what. I appreciate that about you. Yeah, for sure. One last thing
45:5445 minutes, 54 secondswe're doing and we'll do that hopefully on Johnson Farms. Maybe on a future project. I need to make my thermostats idiot proof.
46:0446 minutes, 4 secondsDon't ever, you know, I cannot tell you how many times we end up having to respond to a call in the winter time. You know, my heat bill is $700 and I don't know why.
46:1546 minutes, 15 secondsAnd they got an emergency heat, you know. So, no, I do have something we can set up. I have a little alert system thing we can work in. I'll put it I'll put make a
46:2346 minutes, 23 secondsnote, put it in design. Like, I have a whole entire one of my buddies is way down the road for automation and alerts and stuff like that. So, like I have
46:3146 minutes, 31 secondssomething that we can work into this that will actually help you with that quite a bit.
46:3446 minutes, 34 secondsYeah. I actually found some thermostats that may work, but you can preset the range of the thermostat. It won't get
46:4146 minutes, 41 secondsany colder than, you know, 68° hotter than 78. And they can set it anywhere they want, but that's where
46:5046 minutes, 50 secondsit's going to be. So, it's kind of like the idiot proof in a commercial building. Everyone feels better when they're able to play at the
46:5746 minutes, 57 secondsthermostat. It doesn't do anything. It's just so coming up with the right program and there's probably training for the
47:0547 minutes, 5 secondsresidents. Here's your video on how to operate your therm sign here once you've seen the video. So we know you've seen it and it's all part of the move in
47:1347 minutes, 13 secondsprocess. It's probably something too, but I'm trying to minimize the the
47:2047 minutes, 20 secondspossibilities for people to mess things up.
47:2447 minutes, 24 secondsHey, if you can take the human factor out of it, you change a lot of stuff. I mean, that's just life in general. You know what I mean? Like the more that I don't want to get into some
47:3247 minutes, 32 secondsphilosophical hole about AI because there's a lot of that out there like, oh, the robots are coming. But I do want to say that there
47:3947 minutes, 39 secondsare things that are better controlled by automation than humans that can make the situation a lot more palatable for all involved. For sure.
47:4847 minutes, 48 secondsYeah. Yeah. I'm sure at some point in time I remember when I was in undergrad taking my engineering course in the late
47:5647 minutes, 56 seconds70s or early 80s initially they gave us a slide rule to use HP calculators engineering calculators
48:0548 minutes, 5 secondscame out and at the time there people said man all those people that run slide rules all day long they're going to lose their jobs well guess what they found
48:1348 minutes, 13 secondssomething else to do they started using calculators yeah now they're working with calculator AI isn't something that's coming. It's here. Yeah.
48:2148 minutes, 21 secondsAnd and the unemployment rate is still low.
48:2448 minutes, 24 secondsY some industries have been hit pretty hard by it, but other areas people found how to use it as a tool to help them be more productive in the jobs that they
48:3348 minutes, 33 secondscurrently have. So I think what we're seeing is the gloom of doom from AI is less than what people were saying. It's
48:4048 minutes, 40 secondskind of like 2K all over again.
48:4348 minutes, 43 secondsThe hype sells the cake. I mean, what can you do? Like that's just the way it always goes. We'll run it up on our hour here, so I'm going to go ahead and bring it to an end. But before we end it, two
48:5248 minutes, 52 secondsthings. One, is there anything that you want to put out there to the audience that you'd like them to know or talk about or anything like that for your own business?
48:5948 minutes, 59 secondsSure. Sure. A couple things. I have made presentations at several seminars and
49:0649 minutes, 6 secondsconferences dealing with off-site construction with construction of multif family where I actually walk through the
49:1549 minutes, 15 secondsnumbers on how much we spent, how much we saved, how we made all of these and I I took right from my projects. So, the
49:2349 minutes, 23 secondsCanon's crossing one and two and Davidson's going I got all the numbers.
49:2649 minutes, 26 secondsI I uploaded that to you, Jeremy. So, you can make that available to people. I'm not parking any of this stuff.
49:3349 minutes, 33 seconds30% of the world is begging for what I'm building. And I encourage other developers to step into that space. And
49:4149 minutes, 41 secondsif you show up competing with me, I'm going to have to figure out how to do a better job. Competition makes the world a better place. I'm cool with that. So,
49:4849 minutes, 48 secondsthat's out there. Secondly, if you're looking at retiring and would like to keep your license active and make maybe
49:5549 minutes, 55 secondsa pretty nice little retirement income by working with me as I build my portfolio, we're building two and threebedroom apartment units and pretty
50:0450 minutes, 4 secondsmuch the same climate zones with the same buildings. So, it's the same units over and over and over again. Call me 704952276.
50:1350 minutes, 13 secondsThat's my business number. Or you can look me up online at targetial.com.
50:1950 minutes, 19 secondsI'd be more than happy to talk with you about potentially plugging you in to help us to bring some of this stuff inside house so we have more control
50:2850 minutes, 28 secondsover it. If you're a new ly and you're looking at potentially wanting to build your own business, give me a holler.
50:3750 minutes, 37 secondsMaybe you could work with us as well.
50:3850 minutes, 38 secondsAnd if you're a new LE, you have me as a trainer that will be there training you.
50:4350 minutes, 43 secondsAnd we're one of the best trainers in the country. And that is a value ad for anybody that's new that may want to take Jeff up on his offer. I just want to
50:5150 minutes, 51 secondsthrow that out there. You have access to us as well through this program.
50:5450 minutes, 54 secondsThat's it. That's it. So, I love that. I appreciate you giving me the opportunity to speak here, Jeremy.
51:0151 minutes, 1 secondI appreciate you coming on and bringing me into your program, man. I've been It's been really, really cool. Like really cool. We're I'm having a blast
51:0951 minutes, 9 secondshaving a time in my life and I'm looking forward to growing this with you.
51:1351 minutes, 13 secondsAbsolutely. I appreciate it. One last thing we ask all our guests before we get off the world ended tomorrow and you were the last person on earth left
51:2051 minutes, 20 secondsbefore the world actually ended and they're like, "Hey, before the world ends, paint some advice on the wall for the society that comes next. What's that
51:2851 minutes, 28 secondsadvice look like from you?" Yeah. Others are more important than you. Love it, man. Others are more important than you.
51:3451 minutes, 34 secondsWe'll end with that. Jeff, thank you very much for coming on and it's been a great episode and I can't wait to see what comes next for what you're building here, man.
51:4251 minutes, 42 secondsAppreciate it. Thanks. Byebye.
51:4751 minutes, 47 seconds[music]
